Accuracy issues & expectations

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robtattoo

40 Cal.
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May 7, 2009
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I have a Pietta 1851 Navy that seems to not want to shoot even close to competently.

My current load is 24gn of FFFG & .454 ball with bore butter over the ball. I was told that this should be a fairly accurate load. However my shots are simply terrible.
I'll admit, I'm not the best pistol shot in the world, but at 25yds my shots can be as far off as 36" left & high! Shooting my Glock (sorry, just for example) I can usually hit a 6" gong 10 times out of 10 at 15yds. With the Pietta, I would be surprised if I hit it once.
It's not that I can't just get good groups, I honestly have NO clue as to which direction the ball will fly.
It seems to be fairly consistently high & left, but every now & then a shot will print exactly where it's aimed. Then I'll throw one a foot to the right. I know the sights aren't the best, but I've about convinced myself that that can't be my only issue.

It's my first BP revolver & other than loading, shooting & cleaning procedures, I really don't know where to begin to correct this problem ???
 
Sorry your havin troubles but you might try upping your load to 30 or even 35 grns just to see what it will do. Also you might try the felt wads over the powder. I have also seen a pistol or 2 that did not shoot at point of aim no matter what an then you will just have to compensate. I have been lucky with mine so far as they both shoot where the sight is. Hope you get er figured out. :thumbsup:
 
Oooh. I forgot to mention, it's a brass framed model.

Would I be OK to try 30+ grains?
 
On inexpensive revolvers (and some high end ones for that matter) it isn't unusual for the chambers to be drilled either out of whack to each other or minutely different dimensions. Many a C&B revolver has been accurised by reaming the chambers to a consistent size.

Here's an experiment you can try:

Only load ONE chamber, put a mark on it so you know which one it is. Load and shoot only that chamber for three - five shots and see if you are getting a group. Then try a different chamber and shoot it for group. Keep track of which chamber is shooting to point of aim and which one or ones are throwing them willy nilly. It's time consuming but a valuable trouble shooting aid.

I've used this same system on modern revolvers, it can be revealing of what your gun is doing. It may not be your shooting abillity or load causing wild shots at all.
 
robtattoo said:
I have a Pietta 1851 Navy that seems to not want to shoot even close to competently.

My current load is 24gn of FFFG & .454 ball with bore butter over the ball. I was told that this should be a fairly accurate load. However my shots are simply terrible.
I'll admit, I'm not the best pistol shot in the world, but at 25yds my shots can be as far off as 36" left & high! Shooting my Glock (sorry, just for example) I can usually hit a 6" gong 10 times out of 10 at 15yds. With the Pietta, I would be surprised if I hit it once.
It's not that I can't just get good groups, I honestly have NO clue as to which direction the ball will fly.
It seems to be fairly consistently high & left, but every now & then a shot will print exactly where it's aimed. Then I'll throw one a foot to the right. I know the sights aren't the best, but I've about convinced myself that that can't be my only issue.

It's my first BP revolver & other than loading, shooting & cleaning procedures, I really don't know where to begin to correct this problem ???

Load with just enough powder to allow slight compression of the charge when the ball is seated flush.

BUT. There is a considerable variation in quality in Italian made revolvers. Some, at least in the past, have shallow rifling.
I hate buying a C&B Revolver unseen and will not buy anything but Colt or Uberti.

Dan
 
Don't load more than 25 grains with a brasser. It won't blow apart or anything but just stress it and stretch the frame if you load 30 grains regularly. Twenty five yards is long range for most of these repro revolvers,at least for me, and because you can't adjust the sights it will be tough to get a handle on their accuracy potential. I would suggest moving in to 10 yards and see how it does and when you have a better idea of how it shoots move out to 15 then 20 and then as your confidence grows go out to 25 yards again. Then again you may just have a 15 yard shooter. Good luck.

Don
 
Other things I better add.
The later Colts are not as good as the second gen guns were. Ubertis guns vary in quality or used to but the cylinder alignment and barrels are usually good.
Often the forcing cone at the breech of the barrel is non-existant, too shallow, wrong angle or too deep (this last is bad).
Cylinder alignment/index may be "off". This is bad.
The forcing cone can be checked by any competent gunsmith who works on revolvers. A proper forcing cone, 11 degrees, can take inches off the group size at 25 yards. A gunsmith should have a tool to do this and its simple and fast unless a lot of metal needs to be removed, IE no cone at all.
Alignment "off" and too deep a forcing cone makes the revolver not worth fixing IMO.

Dan
 
Not trying to dis anyone or say that the advice given is wrong but we need to deal with the OP's brand of gun and not make him feel silly about buying a Pietta instead of some other more expensive brand. Lets start simple, move closer to the target with the same load and see what happens. If accuracy is still terrible play with powder load size, ball size, wad versus no wads etc. Rule out the simple things first then look at the possible problems with the gun that others have pointed out. I'll bet a dozen donuts that its something simple that can be fixed without spending money on a gunsmith. Again, not trying to say anyone here is full of hooey just trying to get to the bottom of the OP's problem in a logical way so he doesn't get discouraged thinking he has a POS revolver or needs to get it worked on by a gunsmith.

Don
 
Thanks guys! :hatsoff:

I'll try individual loaded cylinders & OP wads before I try anything else, see if it makes a difference.

One further question; How would ball size effect accuracy? If I'm shaving lead from the ball to force it into each cylinder, how would a larger or smaller ball make any difference? Surely once it's sized to the cylinder, it's original size won't matter.
 
If bore diameter and cylinder diameter are mismatched then ball size is irrelevant. If they are OK then a larger ball might offer a larger baring surface for the rifling to act on thus possibly improving accuracy. But if your using a .454 ball then that should be adequit.

Don
 
Don said:
Not trying to dis anyone or say that the advice given is wrong but we need to deal with the OP's brand of gun and not make him feel silly about buying a Pietta instead of some other more expensive brand. Lets start simple, move closer to the target with the same load and see what happens. If accuracy is still terrible play with powder load size, ball size, wad versus no wads etc. Rule out the simple things first then look at the possible problems with the gun that others have pointed out. I'll bet a dozen donuts that its something simple that can be fixed without spending money on a gunsmith. Again, not trying to say anyone here is full of hooey just trying to get to the bottom of the OP's problem in a logical way so he doesn't get discouraged thinking he has a POS revolver or needs to get it worked on by a gunsmith.

Don

I simply stated a fact. I don't know what the Pietta he has is like or even what it sold for.
But experience has taught me some hard lessons in this regard.
Based on EXPERIENCE (I used to do quite a bit of work on Colt SAA and clones and almost all of it crosses directly to C&B revolvers which I worked on less frequently) I answered the question and stated what I THOUGHT might be causing the problem. Since I can't see the gun from here I used the shotgun approach starting with loading advice.
If its impossible to give VALID information without people getting their back up the site is USELESS.
If he expects decent accuracy, and a good Colt design C&B is ACCURATE by any standard short of a dedicated target pistol, there are things that need to be explored and perhaps corrected.
He needs to know the possible pitfalls and fixes.
Is the hammer excessively loose on the screw for example, if so its possible to put a low rear sight on the barrel to give a consistent rear sight.
If the forcing cone is bad, and you might get a high end gun that could use work in this area like a new made S&W, Brownell's offers the forcing cone cutter kits for good reason, its a fairly easy and almost magical fix sometimes.
So its ENTIRELY possible that the revolver will give excellent accuracy by correcting minor faults that might be found in any production revolver.
But frankly in firearms you almost ALWAYS get what you pay for. In Italy they make guns to a price. You tell them you want to pay 50 bucks for the gun you get a 50 buck gun. Doing the same gun RIGHT might mean its cost to importer is double this or more. Back when I had better contacts I was told that there were at least 3 grades of C&B revolvers being imported, sometimes all with the same makers name.
The bottom line here is I volunteered the information not knowing anything aside from the shooter wanted to know why the revolver did not seem to shoot well.
So I gave loading instructions that would produce 6" groups from my "Western Arms" 1860 Army at 80 yards. Deviating sigificantly from that loading process would seriously degrade the accuracy.
So proper loading is an issue to be considered. If care in loading cures the problem then the other things are NOT AN ISSUE.
But they can ALL be factors that may be relatively easy to fix or not worth the effort.

Its impossible for people to make informed decisions without SOME modicum of information.

I don't believe there is much fear of the brass frame, but cylinder pins DO get loose sometimes or they come that way. I had a 1st Gen Colt that was really a disappointment. I got it in a trade and never did get it like I wanted it and eventually sold it. It happens. But it happens far less often with the upper end guns than with the lower end guns. This is just a fact.

But the mantra of this site is far too often that the cheap guns are just as good as the higher priced ones. In C&B revolvers this is not the case and its not the case in the others as well.

This is an actual chamber cast from an Italian made 1876 Winchester a friend bought.
P1020893.jpg

It was one of the lower end ones. Surprisingly it did not stick cases. But there was no accuracy at all.
As near as I can determine its been chambered 4 times with probably as many different reamers and at least once out of line with the bore. The last time after it was blued and the reamer only removed the bluing and cut into the steel a couple of places at opposite side and ends of the chamber.
Frankly I just don't know how they did this.
Its OBVIOUS the maker knew this barrel was bad but it arrived in the US and was sold anyway.
Oh yes the barrel was turned into the receiver slightly LESS than finger tight as well. This would have been impossible for the guy who installed the barrel to overlook, but he was likely not being paid enough to care. The only thing that kept the barrel "indexed" was the magazine tube.

So the next time one of you are looking at some bargain basement import (or made in USA) BP or other firearm remember this cautionary tale or not. Its just one of many. I happen to have photos of this one handy.

Dan
 
My Pietta's shoot pretty darn good. Especially an 1860 Model. My usual complaint is all of them needed a higher front sight. I replaced mine with a flat top post shaped like a Colt SAA sight.

Plus the forcing cone on my Piettas (except the 58 Shooters model) was almost non existant.

What I did was take the barrel off and use my RCBS Wilson de-burring tool and cut my own forcing cone by hand. Or better yet just cleaned up the one that was there. Didnt take much and the de burring tool (that is made to deburr brass) cuts the Italian steel like butter. These tally guns are made for tinkering with. They are not heirlooms so be careful how much you spend at a gunsmith.

Get consistant on the rammer pressure and try a set of Treso nipples. The Treso nipples will have a consistant flash hole. Your Italian flash holes will be large causing much inconsistancy in the velocity when combined with inconsistant rammer pressure.

Tinker with it

Bob
 
Dan, I don't believe anyone got "their back up". You are obviously very knowlegable and experienced and as I said in my post I wasn't in any way trying to say that the feedback given was wrong. I was looking at the replies from the perspective of someone who may be new to cap and ball guns who may or may not have a lot of technical knowlege about them. I'm sure its not a unique experience for many of us when we start out in something new, pose a question and recieve a lengthy and technical response then feel a bit overwhelmed by it. That was my point, I apologise if you felt scolded for sharing your knowlege.

Don
 
A very common problem with the Italian C&B revolvers is undersized chambers. No matter how large the ball may be to start with, and .454" should be good, once rammed into a chamber it will come out at chamber diameter. If that is smaller than the bore size it will shoot like a smoothbore. You can get a reasonably accurate measurement with calipers or for a simple test try this. Load a ball, ball only, into each chamber just below flush. Then disassemble the gun, remove the nipples and drive the balls back out by inserting through the nipple hole a steel rod or large nail with the point ground off. Now measure the slugs and try pushing one of them through the bore. It should be difficult to start the slug into the bore and when driven through it should show deep marks from the rifling. I would bet the slugs will almost fall through the bore, if so, the chambers will have to be reamed for any semblance of accuracy.
 
Another possiblity is that your chamber diameters are significantly under the groove diameter of your barrel. That is not unusual with repro-cap& ball revolvers from Italy. You can have your gun line-bored to correct diameter (somewhat expensive) or try loading your revolver's chambers with 22 grains of FFFg and top this with 15 grains (measure not weight) of Cream of Wheat cereal(COW). This load should allow the ball to be seated flush or slightly below the cylinder face with light compression to the charge. Dab a small amount of blackpowder lube over the loaded ball to help ease the ball into the forcing cone (this also keeps the cylinder arbor greased as well) The lighter powder charge will burn more completely because of the extra weight and sealing properties of the COW. Powder gas will not escape past the ball down the grooves of the barrel and the ball will be held concentric in the rifling. Accuracy almost always improves and the lighter load will not unduely stress the arbor threads in the brass frame.
 
Try moving the target closer to about 7 yards to cut down on sighting and shooter errors.
Then as the components and loading methods are changed and tried, a better base line of performance will have been established to make valid comparisons with.
Some of the older Pietta guns simply don't shoot as well as the newer ones. The age of the gun can be determined by the two letter proof date code that's inside the square box that's stamped on the side of the frame. What 2 letters are stamped in your proof date code box?
 
"at 25yds my shots can be as far off as 36" left & high"

Here's where I was coming from with my reply. If the gun is off by 3 feet it indicates that there is something more than his load recipe causing it. He could well have a couple or more chambers shooting to POA but by cranking around and shooting froom six different chambers and one or two of them are shooting wild it would make a target look like there is no group at all. I have seen this phenomenea with expensive .44 mags and other less expensive guns. It is just something that can happen in the manufactureing process.

an asside: I wish this forum had spellcheck :grin:
 
several good tips here - and I'll add you should check the muzzle crown when/if you check the other mentioned causes.
a dinged muzzle can cause the slugs to 'spray' all over the place.
 
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