Accuracy with a Navy 1851

[USMA65]

I have an Uberti 1851 Navy, 36 cal. Only 18 round balls have been loaded and shot. Twelve were shot with a lubed wad over the ball. The last six were fired with the lubed wad between the powder and the ball. The first round of shots were definitely more on target than the last six shots. Two questions:
1) Which load is more correct?
2) Did I just have a better day when I shot the twelve, or is there a viable reason one is better than the other?
I might add that this is a real kick in the seat of the pants. What a great sport !! BP Rules !!

 

[MSW]

far be it from me to expound on historical accuracy of what what you do or choose not to do- my degree is in Architecture and that was a very long time ago... pre- CADS, when men were men and giants walked the earth, but i digress...

i would guess that putting the roundball on top of whatever combination you pick is probably the most accurate [historical] practice, but i will defer to those more knowledgeable than i.

what i would do, however, is recommend that you try out several different combinations and see which produces the best result with your particular revolver. each gun is different and will produce different results with different loading combinations, even if they're the same brand, the same caliber and the same model. resonant mechanisms are unique unto themselves, and anyone trying to tell you different is out to sell you something.

so, go with what works for you, unless you feel compelled for some reason to hold yourself to a particular method because it's more historically accurate than something else, in which case you will accept what might or might not be a compromise.

my revolvers seem to like powder, an overpowder card, some corn meal, a lubed felt wad, a roundball, and then some grease, but your mileage may vary.

just one guy's free opinion, and no doubt worth what you just paid.

(the up side of following this advice is that you get a good reason to spend more time at the range working up the most accurate load)

 

[CaptainKirk]

Obviously using the ball-over-powder method with grease over the ball is more "HC", and many report this as being more accurate. Personally, I got tired of holding on to a greased eel, and gladly sacrificed a bit of accuracy for a firm grip on the gun.
Besides, I'm mostly a plinker anyway, and if I'm shooting "minute-of-gong" I'm a happy camper!

 

[msarver]

Isn't it though! I just got my 1st BP .44 remington army w/ 5.5" brl. My first group from the gun was inside a 2.5" circle at 20 yds. That was loading powder, wad, ball, grease.

It was an inch left and an inch down from Point Of Aim with a 24g load of Pyrodex P. I put 40 rds through it the first day and found it to be more sensitive to basic pistol marksmanship (grip placement, pressure, trigger squeeze, follow through, etc) than say a M1911A1 or M9. Small changes made major differences in the POI and the size of the groups

 

[Mike Brooks]

Historically , Sam Colt recommended powder then a ball, that was it. I have loaded them all sorts or ways, but never noticed much difference in the accuracy, mine seem to shoot well no matter how they are loaded.

 

[Hipshot]

That's the way I have been doing it. It's ok but I would like to try concials in paper cartridges like the way they did it back in the day. I have tried makeing my own with varying degrees of failure :surrender: Anyway I wish these were avaible:

[youtube]4vx_nQphKO4[/youtube]

 

[pr.piburn]

That's some mighty fine shooting, 2 1/5 inches
at 25 yds. Did you ever think about shooting at
the Nationals at Friendship Indiana? With shooting like that you would be a shoe-in to win
the National Championship and set records also. I
know because I've been shooting there for past 20
years. Wife has won the women's 7 times now, but
she is no way as good as you shoot. Think about it
We would love to have you. Again, fine shooting on
your part. Phil Piburn

 

[msarver]

That's some mighty fine shooting, 2 1/5 inches at 25 yds. Did you ever think about shooting at the Nationals at Friendship Indiana? Again, fine shooting on your part. Phil Piburn

Thanks, I always try to hit what I aim at :grin:

That said, I'm not sure whether I could repeat it and it was 20yds not 25.

I've never heard of the the Nationals at Friendship. Is this the NMLRA? If so, I just found it on Google. It looks like it would be fun and challenging.

 

[pr.piburn]

Yes, it is the NMLRA. We would love to have you come. It can be some serious shootin. Here is
a picture of a 10 shot 25 yd match there.

 

[msarver]

That's nice shooting at 25 yds. What kind/caliber of revolver?

 

[crockett]

Every gun is unique so you'll have to ticker around with what you have. For a 36 caliber Colt 1851 Navy I'd use a powder charge of FFFg black that was between 18 to 22 grains. I'd use a round ball. The general rule is the the ball ought to be close to the end of the cylinder so as to minimize the distance it travels before entering the barrel. You can scratch a line on the ram and look at it sideways to insure all balls are seated at the same depth. Differences in seating change the volume of the space behind the ball which changes pressure-velocity. Balls should be seated without any airspace. Lot's of folks hear a slight crunch of the powder on seating the ball.
On the wad- the only way I've ever heard of it being seated is powder, then wad, then ball. Probably so the ball keeps the wad from falling out. The theory is also that SOMETIMES the wad seals the gases behind the ball, and cushions the ball- resulting in better accuracy.
If you shoot off sand bags at 25 yards I'd say most groups ought to range between 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" most times. If you use black powder you can also weigh out the charges-but you'll need a bunch of tiny carboard tubes for holding all the charges.

 

[M. De Land]

Huh, I have always heard that shooting round balls was far and away the most used ammunition in these revolvers.
Also that round balls killed better and were generally more accurate.Wonder which is true? MD

 

[crockett]

The military usually used paper cartridges because they were easier to reload in a hurry. The period type bullets they used were horrible with pointed tips and really short driving bands- which could cause the bullet to twist sideways as it was being rammed. The pointed tip wasn't that great as far as impact.
The western lawmen were issued the same stuff for practice shooting but most of them loaded with balls for actual use. The balls back then were not entirely round, there was a sprue or stub from the bullet mold and if this was loaded to the front it was sort of like a modern SWC and hit pretty hard. The combustible cartridges also had modest powder charges, you could cram a lot more powder into the chamber if you used the ball.
AND nothing is etched in stone, there's the famous photo of a Confederate Cavalry soldier Maddox?- and it looks like his revolver is loaded with balls. The southern troops might have (I'm not sure) used balls more often. I am saying that on the hunch the Southern armories did not turn out as many cartridges as the Union.

 

[Hipshot]

Well I don't know for sure one way or the other. But I don't think the military issued loose pistol ball and a powder flask with powder to the troops. I think they would have been issued paper cartridges like the ones tested in the You-Tube clip above. I think the cavalry was issued a pistol ammo box to be worn on the sabre belt that held two packages of paper cartridges holding six rounds each. I also think the were concial bullets not balls. I could be totaly wrong but that's my guess anyway :grin:

 

Captain Sir -

What exactly is a "minute-of-gong" when its at home?

Just askin' now.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Well, since this is a delicate subject, I will handle it carefully and with due prudence....
A gong or suitable substitute (like, say, an old 12" cast-iron frying pan)is suspended by a rope or chain at a amicable range, then fired upon with spirited enthusiasm.
If the gong sings out, the Captain is smiling! :grin:
And I usually don't give a rat's ass where it hits, either... :thumbsup:

 

[crockett]

Hipshot- that is my feeling. I can't recall the exact number of combustible cartridges issued by the Union for revolvers but it was something like 3 million- if I recall. In any event I have never seen a civil war era-military issued powder flask for a revolver- I don't know if they were even made.