Advantages/Disadvantages of 3f with Shot???

[LongWalker]

3f tended to blow a hole in the center of my patterns in my cylinder bored guns. Didn't make any difference in my jug choked guns.

This was something Starr mentioned as well. One of the times when I visited I noted he had plenty of Fg, some FFg, but nary a can of FFFg or FFFFg. When I asked why, he said the smaller grain powders gave higher pressures which seemed to disrupt the patterns. Given that his system of loading worked very well in cylinder bores and in his jug-choked guns, I just went with it. I later noticed I got more erosion at the breech in a modern Bess barrel shot exclusively with FFFg than I expected based on previous use in other barrels with FFg, and attributed this to the powder used.

These days if I have Fg or FFg (and I almost always have FFg on hand), that's what I use. But if I wanted to go shoot at pheasants or doves and only had FFFg, that's what I'd use. I've never been willing to experiment with FFFFg in my smoothbores.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

No, just wondered why you derided another member when it was uncalled for....

Inaccurate assessment there as well....

Sincerely, Have a nice day.

LD

I believe guys with not much experience should be warned there is a safety factor concerning 4f and shotguns. Alot of guys here are shooting inexpensive guns as well as antique guns of questionable integrity. Somebody is going to get hurt. This guy may do it but it may be just a matter of time before he has a catastrophic failure.
I shot with the greatest shotgunners in the world at friendship
NOBODY uses 4f for anything other than priming powder. If it was so good all of those guys would be shooting 4f loads.

 

[MTplainsman]

So, it sounds like I can be pretty successful sticking with 3f down the tube, #5 shot on top, and some more 3f in the pan... this would be great for keeping the KISS method that I am aiming for. I have been listening to you folks on how I can accomplish this... keep the advice coming! Joel

 

[Britsmoothy]

3or 4f every time. Use the other stuff with good safety glasses because half the pellets are gonna come back at ya and squirrels are gonna get real mad at ya!
4f , use 3/4 volume to shot. It's more economical, nothing is going to blow up and nothing ever has despite all the " could and shouldn't" all been blurbed out for decades.
If you're getting holes in your pattern change your wadding not your powder.
Oh and here a picture because it gets right up somes noses.
It's a picture of a thin walled barreled gun too!

Oh heck, let's chuck a video in to get them real worked up

 

[IanH]

I got curious and ran some data through the Pmax program. For a .62 bore with a 497 grain payload and 90 grain weight of powder, 2F to 4F exactly doubled pressure and increased velocity 75 fps.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I got curious and ran some data through the Pmax program. For a .62 bore with a 497 grain payload and 90 grain weight of powder, 2F to 4F exactly doubled pressure and increased velocity 75 fps.

More to it than that buddy.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

So, it sounds like I can be pretty successful sticking with 3f down the tube, #5 shot on top, and some more 3f in the pan... this would be great for keeping the KISS method that I am aiming for. I have been listening to you folks on how I can accomplish this... keep the advice coming! Joel

No guarantee with 3f. It may work and it may not. Only way to find out is at the pattern board. I've had some guns do great with 3f and some that did great with 2f.
Then you have to figure out what wad combos to use. I have always found jug choked guns easy to find loads for. I have had cylinder bored guns be difficult and have had to work a long time to find the best load, usually by using a felt wad.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I got curious and ran some data through the Pmax program. For a .62 bore with a 497 grain payload and 90 grain weight of powder, 2F to 4F exactly doubled pressure and increased velocity 75 fps.

Curios to know what those pressure levels are.

 

[Brokennock]

I got curious and ran some data through the Pmax program. For a .62 bore with a 497 grain payload and 90 grain weight of powder, 2F to 4F exactly doubled pressure and increased velocity 75 fps.

Does the pmax program account for real black powder or just substitutes?
Did the gun or test barrel blow up?

Not one of the criticisers has produced even one example of a gun being blown up or a shooter being unalived or injured using 4f powder. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I think for it to happen one would have to be pretty dumb and ignoring other common practiced such as reducing the load when switching to finer powder. We reduce when switching from 2f to 3f and work back up if needed, seems someone worthy of advancing their DNA would reduce further with the even finer powder and work up slightly if needed.

 

[tenngun]

I find ‘hot’ to blow patterns, 60 f works well in 2 I cut back to 55 if using 3
Not often as I have dedicated horns for each gun

 

[PathfinderNC]

Does the pmax program account for real black powder or just substitutes?
Did the gun or test barrel blow up?

Not one of the criticisers has produced even one example of a gun being blown up or a shooter being unalived or injured using 4f powder. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I think for it to happen one would have to be pretty dumb and ignoring other common practiced such as reducing the load when switching to finer powder. We reduce when switching from 2f to 3f and work back up if needed, seems someone worthy of advancing their DNA would reduce further with the even finer powder and work up slightly if needed.

“Unalived” now that’s a word I like!
I’m goin out to unalive some squirrels today in fact
I’m rather new at smoothbore shooting and have a lot of good experiences with my FdC. It does fine with both 3 and 2 for clay birds and tree rats. The bigger question is how it’s loaded.
But like Comfortably Numb said which is true, every gun has its likes. It takes a lot of work to discover the optimum load. And a lot of pattern paper. It seems more work than with a rifle because of the the many varied combinations you can use.
But as far as powder grain size in my smoothbores, the jury’s still out. But even so, with either 2 or 3, the gun out-preforms my capabilities, though it’s an enjoyable time using either. And having an enjoyable time is what it’s all about, at least for me

 

[Brokennock]

It takes a lot of work to discover the optimum load. And a lot of pattern paper. It seems more work than with a rifle because of the the many varied combinations you can use.

Solid truth right here. Ya need to do the work. And even taking the rifle comparison away, I feel it takes a lot more work and resources developing good, repeatably reliable, shot patterns than it does even roundball loads from a smoothbore. Both due, as you said to the large number of variables one can change, and also because the pattern from the exact same load recipe will never be the same shot to shot. It's a game of averages.

 

[Sam squanch]

I use 4 f in MODERN barrels. Old twist barrels are just for collecting, I’ve seen too many examples that were suspect in quality. Now the old real high quality barrels may be a different story, I can’t afford an old gun like that!

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Does the pmax program account for real black powder or just substitutes?
Did the gun or test barrel blow up?

Not one of the criticisers has produced even one example of a gun being blown up or a shooter being unalived or injured using 4f powder. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I think for it to happen one would have to be pretty dumb and ignoring other common practiced such as reducing the load when switching to finer powder. We reduce when switching from 2f to 3f and work back up if needed, seems someone worthy of advancing their DNA would reduce further with the even finer powder and work up slightly if needed.

I blew up a rifle with 2f. Douglas barrel, 1 inch x .50 80 gr powder.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Old rule of thumb back in the UK that works well, is a dram (27 1/3 grains if nitpicking) for every half ounce of shot.
so if an ounce is used in your 20 bore, try 55 grs.
Yes, you can get more velocity, but also bugger your pattern.
A straight cylinder should work out to 40 yards once you get your load figured.
For geese back home, 3 drams worked with 1 1/2 ounces. This wasn't decoying, but wildfowling on the marshes. Real wild sport.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I blew up a rifle with 2f. Douglas barrel, 1 inch x .50 80 gr powder.

I'm not saying anything......

 

[Robin101]

Old rule of thumb back in the UK that works well, is a dram (27 1/3 grains if nitpicking) for every half ounce of shot.
so if an ounce is used in your 20 bore, try 55 grs.
Yes, you can get more velocity, but also bugger your pattern.
A straight cylinder should work out to 40 yards once you get your load figured.
For geese back home, 3 drams worked with 1 1/2 ounces. This wasn't decoying, but wildfowling on the marshes. Real wild sport.

Interesting in that after a lot of experimenting, that is just about the exactly the powder measure I ended up with on my 16 Ga. for my best groups.
Robin

 

[Brokennock]

I blew up a rifle with 2f. Douglas barrel, 1 inch x .50 80 gr powder.

Okay. So then powder granulation clearly isn't the issue. That seems a pretty reasonable load.
Any idea what the issue actually was? Is 1 inch too small o.d. for a .50 bore? Thin spot at a dovetail? Obstruction?

 

[IanH]

Curios to know what those pressure levels are.

13K peak with 2F, 16-something with 3F, and 26K peak with 4F.

I can run a specific load/barrel combination if you're curious about specifics. The model doesn't account for wadding shock absorption, vent losses, and assumes no leaks so it is a "worst case".

The model convinced me to switch to 2F in my little 24-gauge Chief's gun because the barrel is only .100" thick at the peak pressure area. Going from 3F to 2F dropped pressure from 15K to 12K while maintaining 1250 fps on 7/8 ounce of shot.

 

[WALT53]

13K peak with 2F, 16-something with 3F, and 26K peak with 4F.

I can run a specific load/barrel combination if you're curious about specifics. The model doesn't account for wadding shock absorption, vent losses, and assumes no leaks so it is a "worst case".

The model convinced me to switch to 2F in my little 24-gauge Chief's gun because the barrel is only .100" thick at the peak pressure area. Going from 3F to 2F dropped pressure from 15K to 12K while maintaining 1250 fps on 7/8 ounce of shot.

My load after lots of work and paper in a 24 gauge .579 bore 45 grains of 2 f 45 grains of cornmeal 7/8 to 1 oz of shot in a paper shot cup ( 3 wraps of news paper ) and something to hold it in - wasp nest paper wad or thin wad this works for me profs in the pudding.