An 1820-1830 Pennsylvania converted to percussion?

[RonRC]

I have a long rifle that I have tried to identify using several books like that by Dillin and another by Kauffman.
The rifle has obviously been converted from flintlock to percussion. I was told that the stock was "lightly" refinished along the way. There is no name I can identify on any component.
Here are some photos:

Thank you,
Ron

 

[Captjoel]

Hi Ron, After viewing your photo's of this rifle I have found several aspects that lead me to believe it may date back earlier then your 1820-30 estimate. More information is needed regarding the dimensions of your rifle. The width of the butt plate, barrel dimensions; is it swamped? Also need a close up picture of the side plate, barrel tang, toe plate, and one of the patchbox where it meets the butt plate. This piece has a lot of details that strongly suggest that it could be the work of George Schroyer. My opinions on this come from study of Schroyer's engraving styles along with the over-all architecture of your rifle. I recommend that you look into information about this gunsmith from such books as Kindig's "Thoughts On The Kentucky Rifle In It's Golden Age", as well as the two KRA books available; "Kentucky Rifles And Pistols 1750-1850", "The Kentucky Rifle: A True American Heritage In Picture". I look forward to hearing back from you Ron with your added information. All the best...Joel Hall

 

[Dphar]

The lock is a late flintlock, surely Birmingham or Belgian.
We have to remember that the rifle may have a mix of newer and later parts and could be a restock of several rifles that were worn or broken done back in the day. But trying to make a determination from photos is difficult.

But it was surely originally or perhaps last stocked in the time period you suggest based on the lock and the way the lock panels are shaped.

Dan

 

[RonRC]

Thank you very much, Gentlemen!
I will take measurements and photos when I return home after work today.
This rifle is even older than me! :grin:

Ron

 

[suzkat]

Can't wait to see more pictures. Nice old rifle.
Wish I had time to scour the Patchbox book and see if I could ID the maker. I've know a Dauphin/Northumberland Cty rifle with the exact same stock profile.

 

[RonRC]

As soon as I get a break from work, I will reduce some photos in size and post them as well as some dimensions.

Thank you,
Ron

 

[RonRC]

The barrel is a few 64ths more than 1 7/8" at the lock and a few 64ths more than 1 3/4" near the muzzle.
Here are some additional photos:

More on next post

 

[RonRC]

More in next post

 

[RonRC]

 

[RonRC]

Ron

 

[RonRC]

The butt plate is 1/64th larger than 1 1/4" wide at its largest point and is 4 7/16' long in a straight line from top to bottom.

The brass fitting at the muzzle is 1" across and its length is 1 7/16".

The barrel is a bit larger (3/64") than 7/8 near the lock, 7/8" about 2/3 toward the muzzle, and 13/16" (plus 1/32") across the flats at the muzzle.

Barrel length is 34 1/16".

Ron

 

[54ball]

This answers some questions I had about this rifle. While a good rifle, the engraving did not match the overall flow of the rifle that is stocked rather plain. I'm not referring to the grade of wood but the absence of carving and or more decorative inlays.

I thought this rifle due to shape may date to the 1810s but IMHO it's a later re stock with earlier parts. Note how the patch box does not fit the curve of the stock.

The drum conversion is most interesting.

 

[Wes/Tex]

The drum conversion is most interesting.

That was my first thought as well. Still trying to figure out if the drum installation required the hammer with such a long 'throw' or if a rather long hammer required an unusual drum set-up.

 

[RonRC]

You are correct. There are no carvings or embellishments on the stock.
Ron

 

[Captjoel]

I too have to concur with 54ball regarding the patchbox placement at the buttplate. This shows signs that the PB was fitted to the stock by someone other than the gunsmith that built the rifle.

 

[54ball]

Here is another clue.

Note the wood above the lock directly above the lockpate above the hammer. Most, but not all flinters have some wood removed in this area for clearance of the cock. This is a sign this rifle may have been built as percussion. Since the inletting of the lock looks good, a older flintlock plate was used. So this rifle may have always been percussion.

it could be the work of George Schroyer

Schreyer or Schroyer?? IMHO this is a good rifle but the architecture just not there for a master like Schreyer.

 

[RonRC]

Is it possible or likely that the metal, particularly the brass parts, are older than the 1820-30 date I stated?
Does the patch box have identifiable characteristics that could be traced to a particular gun maker (like Schreyer or some other)?

I have been flipping through Shumway's book to look for matching patch boxes. There are some that have the 4-petal flower, but otherwise do not look like mine.

I am learning a lot from all of you!
Thanks,
Ron

 

[54ball]

Is it possible or likely that the metal, particularly the brass parts, are older than the 1820-30 date I stated?
Does the patch box have identifiable characteristics that could be traced to a particular gun maker (like Schreyer or some other)?

Firstly it looks to me like the rifle was built with older parts.
The curve of the butt plate, patch box, maybe the barrel and the style of the flintlock plate look as if they could date to the first two decades of the 19th Century. The stock work looks later, maybe much much later. No telling about the handmade hammer and square drum, maybe the original drum was replaced to keep the rifle in function.
Lots of mystery about this rifle.

Secondly I'm not an expert and sometimes I know just enough to get me trouble.

Captjoel,

Schreyer or Schroyer?? IMHO this is a good rifle but the architecture just not there for a master like Schreyer

I did not mean any sarcasm by that. I do know that Schreyer may have been John Armstrongs master.I was sincerely asking about info on a gunmaker named Schroyer.

 

[Captjoel]

No sarcasm taken 54ball. I am pretty sure we are talking about the same gunsmith here. George Schroyer himself used many different spellings for his last name. Before the Revolutionary War he was working in the area around Reading PA and moved to Hanover in the beginning years of that war. According to Kindig, there was also a George Schroyer Jr. most likely a son who was also a gunsmith. Getting back to RonRC's rifle in question, as I first noted features that are consistent with earlier longarms. It is difficult to come to any cut and dried conclusions from looking at photo's. I was also a bit stumped by Ron's measurements that he listed. I can only say that the patchbox and it's engraving style look very similar to some of the boxes produced by Schroyer. As for the rest of the piece? Without seeing the rifle in hand, it would be very speculative at best to try and identify. I will say that just because a rifle is found without all of the more artistic details present, all of the early PA gunsmiths did produce rifles that were plain and unadorned. I have owned and handled many good old longrifles that only had a patchbox. No other carving, inlays, or moldings present. Some of these more ordinary works were even signed by noted makers. Looking at this rifle and going with 54ball's comments about the wood around the upper lock plate, I do see signs that there has been wood replaced there. This is also a very common place for restoration that was sometimes done when a rifle was converted to percussion. In my opinion this rifle was originally a flintlock.

 

[Captjoel]

On another note to RonRC and all who are in pursuit of these fine historic longrifles, do not be discouraged. It is most important to spend much time in study of the early work. Read every book you can get your hands on and go and see the original guns anywhere they can be found. From personal experience, I tell you that there are still fine old Kentucky's out there. Just this past summer I found one of the nicest unsigned works of Frederick Sell in a local high end gunshop. It was there on display for the whole world to see for nearly 6 months. In all of that time, I was the only person who knew what it was! It sure made my day.....heck, it made my lifetime! :wink: