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An oringial 1792 Springfield

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oldarmy

50 Cal.
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I had the pleasure today of holding and examining an original 1792 Springfield musket.
This rifle is marked 1812. I assume that is the year of manufacture.
It's in very good shape.
I didn't have a camera with me at the time, But the gun store owner said I could take all the pics I wanted.
Will have some pics in the next couple of days.
The musket has been in the same family for many generations.
The history of the weapon has been lost.
Who brought it home, where it came from.
It's a shame..
anyway will have some pics soon :grin:
 
1795??
That's why I want to post some pics of it.
Those barrel bands and springs are a bear to inlet correctly.
I re-stocked a 1903 for my son and getting the right fit of band and clip took a long time.
Would like to know how they did it in the old armories.
This one is still fitted great :hatsoff:
after 200+ years
 
Yep, the first U.S armory made and issued musket was the 1795 Springfield.

There is the 1792 Contract rifle purchased from various makers and issued to some troops.
 
And technically there was no M1795 Springfield. Until the M1816 (aka 1821), all the flint muskets were called the "Charleville Pattern" muskets. The M1808 and the M1812 were variations of the so-called M1795.
 
I have a contract musket marked 1810, R & C Leonard, Canton (Mass.) Would it be correct to say that it is a model 1792 but made in 1810? What was the difference in the 1792 and the 1795?
any ideas? It's in great shape, shoots good. Has some initials and N.J. carved in the stock.
 
The 1792 Contract Rifle, is a whole different animal than what Old Army is referring to. It was our first issued Military rifle. The 1803 was our first Armory made and issued rifle.

The 1795 Springfield was our first Armory made and issued "Smoothbore Musket". There was also several "Contract Muskets" (non-Armory)made by various makers to fill in holes. Some States contracted for arms for their own militias I believe.

The experts know far more than I do on all this. Just trying to point out there is a difference between the 1792 Rifle and the 1795 Springfield Musket.
 
Here are some pic of it.
They are not the greatest, but they give you an idea of what great shape this gun is in.
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I wish that the closeup of the lock was more straight-on and clearer, but it's clear enough to see that the musket is what is known as the Model 1808. Actually the 1812 date shows it was made near the end of the run for this model at Springfield.

The lock markings as seen on this were first used on the '08. The pan is rounded on this one, whereas the pan of the M1795 had flat beveled edges. The projection at the rear of the plate is more pronounced than on other models. Also, from what I can see, the projection at the bottom of the frizzen is straight rather than curled. It's curled on the '95, much like most rifles. The '08 was the last "model" to use the beveled cock. The rounded cock was used on the M1812 and thereafter. The shape of the frizzen spring suggests that it could be a replacement as the M1808 spring was shaped somewhat differently than the others.

Another good way to be sure whether or not this is a '95 or an '08 is to remove the lock and see if the pan is detachable. It is on the '95. The pan on the '08 is forged integral with the plate. Also, the barrel on the '95 is supposed to be 44 5/8" long and that on the '08 is 44 1/2" long. (I know, not much difference).

The '95 was made from 1795 through 1807. Production of the '08 began in 1807 and ran through at least 1812, as many contractors had five year contracts.

There may be variations found in these models due to repairs during service with parts of different models as well as the fact that each gun was handmade from first to last and trying gauges at that time virtually non-existant. And when dealing with contract-made arms, even more variations are evident.

Anyhow, that's a good looking piece and someone's lucky to have it.
:thumbsup:
 
I will get a better picture of the lock.
He is closed Sunday and Monday.
Taking pictures of guns is an art form all by it's self
 
It's tough getting a good picture of a gun. If you can lay it on a plain light gray blanket or something like that without any pattern, everything shows up better. I bought a digital camera some time back that has a "museum" setting. It allows you to get real close and not blur the image, but, you still have to be careful and hold it real steady. I also don't use the flash unless it's absolutely necessary. I've seen the glare from the stock finish mess up a good picture. At least with these new-fangled digital cameras you can usually tell if the picture is good though I have been rather unpleasantly surprised by a few.

If you can get the lock off, or have the owner do it, you'll be able to see if that pan is detachable. The '95 through the 1812 models warn't exactly what you would call "standard" arms. All were handmade. There were also no gauges to match parts to for years and when they did have them, they were imperfect and tended to get worn and damaged through use and any parts tried with them ended up, well, not quite right. If they fell within certain tolerances, they passed.

The Contract of 1808 was supposed to be an attempt to standardize arms among the contractors, at least as much as handmade arms could be. In 1812, they tried again, with not much more success. The Model of 1816 was yet another attempt at standardization and interchangeability using new gauging. Things were getting better, but they were still building these things by hand, though machine tools were starting to make a difference. But it wasn't until the M1842 percussion musket was produced that interchangeability (mass production) was found in musket manufacture. John Hall had already produced interchangeable rifles at Harpers Ferry nearly 20 years before.

So, with these early muskets, you'll often see many variations and also mixed parts on some, usually on guns made at the beginning of a new model run. They often, especially at contractor's plants, used parts from the earlier model until they were used up on the newer model. There generally wasn't much difference in them anyway and if a musket had to be repaired, a new part had to be hand fitted because nothing was interchangeable.
:thumbsup:
 
What do you think of Flayderman's assertion that there is no model of 1808 and that the arms produced by Springfield and Harper's Ferry at the same time are essentially two different types of musket?
 
tmdreb said:
What do you think of Flayderman's assertion that there is no model of 1808 and that the arms produced by Springfield and Harper's Ferry at the same time are essentially two different types of musket?



That is correct, Flayderman first stated the then growing opinion among researchers that the so-called "Model 1808" never existed over 20 years ago and all new information coming out since then has confirmed that. It has been explained by Flayderman, Moller, Reilly and Schmidt most adequately. Instead, the Springfield production has been broken up into:

"Type I" from 1795 to 1806
"Type II" from 1806 to 1809
"Type III" from 1809 - 1814

To further confuse the neat early collectors' titles, Harpers Ferry Types are different from beginning to end and Contractor production is then broken up to allign them with "Springfield Pattern" or Harpers Ferry Pattern", depending on where the contractor received his pattern musket. The gun this thread is based on is based on a Springfield stock even though Leonard received their pattern musket from Harpers Ferry. Confusing, isn't it? Also, remember that the "M1795" designation is incorrect but it has been kept to allow an anchor point for collectors. As stated above, "Charleville Pattern" is the correct period designation.

BTW, that is a very attractive musket and as KanawhaRanger suggested, take off the lock (if it is allowed) to get a better idea of originalty. It is in beautiful condition and probably saw little use, most Contractor guns were issued to Militia while those made by the National Armories were kept seperate for the Regulars.
 
I tend to agree. Claud Fuller and Arcadi Gluckman who were probably the foremost of US military arms scholars in their time, both used the designations "M1795, '08, '12 and so on, and many reaearchers and students of these arms, including myself, have also used them even though they're not really correct. But, these "model designations", although incorrect, are handy when we are discussing muskets of particular periods and types and I guess we tend to overlook it from time to time. I for one, not being an expert, need all the help I can get when trying to answer a question about a particular gun and since I can't remember every detail about a certain gun find these model numbers useful in looking up something I couldn't remember. Fuller even has a "Special Model 1795" musket listed that included changes found in later patterns, including the combless stock of the M1816.

From what I have read and observed, the muskets adopted by the US military from 1795 through 1812 were patterned directly from the M1763 French musket used in our Revolution. Slight changes were made such as lock dimensions and others too detailed to go into here through to the 1812 variant. In 1808, due to so many variations between the two National Armories and the contractors, a new "standard" musket was introduced and pattern muskets were passed out to the armories as well as the contractors so that their output would be the same as much as possible. According to Gluckman, some of the changes in these arms conformed to the M1777 French musket. By 1812, it was found that there was still a great lack of uniformity in those muskets made by the contractors. New pattern muskets were then made for a new "model", the so-called M1812. Not only were the contractors to make the new musket on this pattern, they were forced to make some of the changes while still fulfilling the 1808 contracts. That's one of the reasons why so many of the muskets made during this period don't conform to a certain pattern or model. As VA MANUF. said, the Springfield production can be broken down into 3 groups. Actually, the Harpers Ferry production can be broken down, as well as those made by contractors. Flayderman himself has broken each model year down into groups. It can be very confusing. Add to that the fact that many of the existing muskets from this period have had field or armory repairs and some were made with parts from a different model.

The M1816 was an attempt to perfect the musket and get away from the ongoing problems with so many variations coming from the various armories. But, it was still a "Charleville Pattern" musket. Some of the changes had already been incorporated on some of the muskets of the 1812 pattern in the few years before the adoption of the M1816. The biggest change in this model was in the lock, which was closely patterned after the French Model 1777. The mountings still conformed to the M1763 and the stock was changed by removing the comb at the wrist. In 1817, the brass pan used on the M1777 replaced the iron one on the US muskets, although the iron pan was used until existing stocks were used up.

The M1835 (or M1840 if you lean that way) was patterned with minor changes after the French M1822. And the M1842 percussion musket was merely the '35 with a percussion lock.

As for the arms produced at Springfield and Harpers Ferry being different, that is very true. It shouldn't have happened, especially since both armories employed highly skilled craftsmen from the New England and Pennsylvania arms trade. But there were various problems at the Ferry; health issues among employees, quality control and outright crookedness existing at the supply end (iron and wood suppliers), family and local control of the Armory and most of all, the reluctance of the armory administrators to adopt new technology and machinery that would have insured uniformity and greater production. Although John Hall had been making interchangeable rifles at the Ferry for years, it wasn't until 1845 when the M1842 production started that muskets made there were fully interchangeable. For years, the armorers fought against the machines that Springfield had embraced, simply because of the pride they had in their skills and the higher pay they received. They didn't want to become mere "machine tenders". I will say one thing, for years all the pattern muskets used in production at both armories as well as by the contractors were made at Harpers Ferry and in one report I've read it was mentioned that the workmen there made extremely high quality pattern arms. They just seemed to fall down when it came to production runs. I forgot to mention above that there was some skullduggery going on among some of the inspectors as well. There were some complaints by Army officers that they had received some muskets that didn't even have the touchholes bored out. This made it to the Secretary of War who asked the superintendent just how did these muskets pass proof if there were no vents through which fire could be communicated to explode the proof charges? Roswell Lee at Springfield did the best he could to help out at Harpers Ferry by trading workers, materials and ideas, and it helped, but not enough to overcome all the problems at the Ferry.

I'm afraid I got a little longwinded here.
You'll have to forgive me. There's no one here at the house to talk about this stuff with. For some reason my wife just doesn't get into this. :(
 
I have a Harpers Ferry M1795 Type III (Flayderman).

102-0272_IMG.jpg


All the metal parts are marked with a matching assembly number "IX" and the stock with "XVI".

101MSD-DSC00668_DSC00668.jpg


Perhaps one of you eagle eyes can tell me whether the last digit of the year is a 3 or a 5 ? I keep changing my mind each time I look at it. Was it common for a mis-stamp to lose the first digit in the year ?

101MSD-DSC00667_DSC00667.jpg


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All the best
Paul
 
It's a 5. I used my Photo Editor and sharpened and zoomed on it. It's uncommon from what I've seen for the first digit to be missing on US arms. It is common however on Austrian muskets and rifles. From the wear on the F of Ferry, I'd say the 1 was probably stamped lightly and rubbed off over the years.

The numbers 3, 5 and 8 can cause all sorts of trouble when stamped too lightly or too deep. For instance, the 3 is stamped very heavily on some of the M1873 Trapdoor Springfields and looks like an 8. I've seen and heard several people claim that there was a Model 1878 Trapdoor based on that.
 
This is a good example of an earlier contract musket prior to the 1816 models. The 1816 has a couple of refinements on the lock based on the Later Charleyville muskets ( 1776 )

The pan was made of brass to fight rust

The pan was tilted forward a few degrees so as to aid priming while standing up

The very top edge of the frizzen was turned back twards the muzzle. The French did this to lessen the chances of the soldier cutting his fingers on the large flint. At least thats what I read. Most
rifle locks have the same feature. I stll manage to cut my fingers!!!

This is a fine looking musket!!!! I would love to put a few .675 balls downrange with it! Thanks for posting these pictures! :thumbsup:
 
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