Anybody practice with their 'hawks?

[FSCGunslinger]

Now obviously this includes throwing, but that's not the kind of practicing I am specifically talking about. The kind I'm talking about is the American Heritage fighting style of using the tomahawk in conjunction with the long knife.

Who knows, I may be way off track asking this here. Is there any kind of interest in learning how these weapons were used in the battles that forged our young nation?

I have studied various Asian martial arts weapon styles, but the style that I fancy most is that of the 'hawk & bowie that was formed here. Oh, sure, maybe axes have always been used in combat (it's the oldest man-made weapon asside from the spear) and knives have always been used as off-hand weapons, but the lethal and efficient way that they were combined in the colonies and out west still amazes me. And besides, I'm more likely to find a roofing hatchet or kitchen knife to use should I need one than a sword or other exotic weapon.

Unfortunately, printed material is few and far between on this subject. I've got McLemore's book The Fighting Tomahawk , and I try to practice solo at least a couple times a week. It's a very good read. I'm hoping to do more this summer when my friends will have more time to assist and spar with me.

So has anyone tried to emulate and actually find out what went in to the development of these tools as weapons? If so, what's your training regime? Any tips for me? I know the Army Rangers issue the tomahawk and train with it. Anybody know where they get their training or know how they go about it?

 

When I was in Ranger school our motto was "take more ammo".

For the weight of a 'hawk you can carry four more mags for an m16.

If someone was going to get down to the point where they were using edged weapons it was going to be the other guy, so we could shoot him!

Hand to hand combat was just another harassment rutinue they put us through. Beat up your buddy by the numbers.

:sorry:

 

Man, I agree with that! All through bayonet drill all I could think of (besides my short arms :crackup was SAVE YOUR AMMO! I figured a back-up pistol was what I needed more than a hawk or bayonet. That said, a (late)buddy of mine saved his life on patrol by killing a VC in hand-to-hand with a Bowie knife his brother had given him, but that is another story. A proper hawk is a wonderful tool and sure could be a useful last ditch weapon, but I only practice throwing it in order not to embarass myself at our club's little events.....and there is documentation that they were thrown in actual combat...

 

[rich pierce]

You guys are scarin me. But I want "in"! Would love to hone all my frontier skills. It would be great if someone could offer a course in such a thing at a gathering. I think Kent's place would be the ticket.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

When I was in Ranger school our motto was "take more ammo".

For the weight of a 'hawk you can carry four more mags for an m16.

If someone was going to get down to the point where they were using edged weapons it was going to be the other guy, so we could shoot him!

Hand to hand combat was just another harassment rutinue they put us through. Beat up your buddy by the numbers.

:sorry:

Firearms make noise. Sometimes you dont want to be heard.
Sometimes you are in close quarters. Rifles are to cumbersome. That 9mm they give you is a joke.

I have always carried a sword and knife, Attached to my LBE.
In the jungle they were used a lot. In the desert not much at all. In convention 50/50.

Now back to the topic. I practice my blades bi-monthly. Have for many years. I keep them sharp, I keep me sharp. (they are sharper).
If I get into Knife and hawk THROWING. I'll incorperate those into my practice times.

I have this issue with throwing away a perfectly good weapons.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I get a lot of tomahamk practice. Almost every night in the winter. The ceilings are too low in the basement far axe work, and even the quarter-split the logs are too large for kindling.

Once a year I scout out where I want to "deploy" for deer season, and I use hand-axe and rifleman's knife to clear a way in and arrange a minimal ground blind. The only thing I ever fight that fights back are the thornapples. I've tried to leg sweep them when they're telegraphing a kick but it never works.

I only got as far as yellow-belt when I studied karate in college, so I just rely on fighting dirty when the need arises.

KEE YAH! Monkey throws poo!

There are a couple "rogue" sensi in my area who teach intro weapon classes (mine was of the opinion that once you mastered empty hand he'd let you pick up something . . . ask again in five years). See if there is a "cane defense" or "baton/tonfa" class in your area. Either would readily translate to tomahawk. Some of the tripping/trapping techniques would be handy to know.

 

[FSCGunslinger]

Firearms make noise. Sometimes you dont want to be heard.
Sometimes you are in close quarters. Rifles are to cumbersome. That 9mm they give you is a joke.

I have always carried a sword and knife, Attached to my LBE.
In the jungle they were used a lot. In the desert not much at all. In convention 50/50.

Now back to the topic. I practice my blades bi-monthly. Have for many years. I keep them sharp, I keep me sharp. (they are sharper).
If I get into Knife and hawk THROWING. I'll incorperate those into my practice times.

I have this issue with throwing away a perfectly good weapons.

What do you do to practice. Do you use a pell? Training partners? Live steel or training weapons? If you'd prefer to send me a PM with specifics on applications, that'd be fine with me (and I'd be much appreciative).

Keep up the responses, fella's. I want to know more...

 

One of Roger's rules was that you could lie to outsiders all you wanted to, but never to another Ranger or to an officer.

You guys have been lied too!

I was in the jungle

I was in the desert

I carried 3 knives; one to open c-rats, one to cut como wire, and a hand forged combat knife to tell lies about to outsiders.

If one of my men showed up with a sword on his LBE I'd have him busted on section 8. Too many reporters looking for the nuts in every unit!

Besides, you guys are going to hurt yourselves!

:imo:

 

[Johnny Tremain]

What do you do to practice. Do you use a pell? Training partners? Live steel or training weapons?

Training dummy, It hangs in me garage. Partners, not any more. Live steel stays on my wall and is powdered and oiled bi-yearly. Training weapons, both Aluminum for form. Ratan for speed and hitting with.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Ghost,

Im glad I retired in the 90s. The new PC Army aint my cup of joe. Different time, different men.

BTW Onterio Knives was back ordered for months on their combat katanas. Seems a bunch of them were taken to Afgany and Iraq to do the chop chop on terrorists. Guess all their owners got section Eights too, musta kept the lawyers busy.

Oh yeah, Guys carried tomahawks also. Im sure they didnt open cans or throw them.

Ah the bad old days, seems like just yestercentury

 

[FSCGunslinger]

When I was in Ranger school our motto was "take more ammo".

For the weight of a 'hawk you can carry four more mags for an m16.

:says:

Someone once told me that blades (of all sorts) don't run out of ammo.

:imo: :results: :relax: :m2c: :thumbsup:

 

[FSCGunslinger]

BTW Onterio Knives was back ordered for months on their combat katanas. Seems a bunch of them were taken to Afgany and Iraq to do the chop chop on terrorists. Guess all their owners got section Eights too, musta kept the lawyers busy.

Oh yeah, Guys carried tomahawks also. Im sure they didnt open cans or throw them.

Wow, never knew people tried to carry anything that large into combat. The tomahawk has been present in every American war since, well, since before we were the United States (F & I War). Note: I didn't say "issued".

 

OK, I'll tell the bowie knife story. it is Nam, ca. 1970...my buddy is a Marine Lt. with a recon group...his brother gave him one of those huge Western Cutlery bowies they don't make anymore and it was too heavy to carry, so he usually left it in his duffel at base camp. One fine day he was going out on patrol and on a whim put the thing on his belt. A few clicks later a VC popped up out of a hole in the trail and at a couple of paces pointed an AK at him and pulled the trigger--MISFIRE/JAM!--my buddy fumbles for his sidearm (a .45) but the clasp was jammed! (I never said Marines were smart)while the VC is trying to clear his weapon....buddy remembers the bowie just as VC seems to be ready--and buddy whips out the big bowie and whacks off the VC's arm at the shoulder--from which he bleeds out quickly (Marines are brave and tough). Not a lie.

One of Roger's rules was that you could lie to outsiders all you wanted to, but never to another Ranger or to an officer.

You guys have been lied too!

I was in the jungle

I was in the desert

I carried 3 knives; one to open c-rats, one to cut como wire, and a hand forged combat knife to tell lies about to outsiders.

If one of my men showed up with a sword on his LBE I'd have him busted on section 8. Too many reporters looking for the nuts in every unit!

Besides, you guys are going to hurt yourselves!

:imo:

 

[jim gray]

For the weight of a 'hawk you can carry four more mags for an m16.

I always found that the tomahawk came in handy when you were preparing a deliberate ambush, and for other field chores. The most common use for a fighting knife was opening MREs, but still it was comforting to know that you had a back up weapon of some kind if it came to that. I saw more than one M-16 firing pin break, and those people who always tried to stuff thirty rounds into a thirty round magazine seemed to cause themselves a lot of jams.

But since the topic pertains to reenacting or reliving an era when muzzleloading weapons were state of the art, I think grabbing a tomahawk was a more realistic solution than trying to reload when the enemy was charging you with a bayonet or his own tomahawk.

Even if you never have to use the hand to hand combat training it is not a waste of time. It is a good phhysical training work out and gives you a very good reason for practicing fire discipline. Additionally I would think that as a ranger you would understand that firing your weapon on a long range patrol when you are several miles deep into enemy territory would attract a lot of unwanted attention.
Even if you have priority of fire, an immediate suppression fire mission is not always practical.

 

[FSCGunslinger]

Here here, Flash_in_the_pan! Blades are 100% quiet.

 

[merdean]

I'm glad you guys had MRE's. I used my knife to open C rats. Eggs and ham. What memories. Just put the cans on the engine block for a while to make em not quite so cold. Never were enough P-38's in those cases. But I will admit, by the end of my career I did eat MRE's once or twiced.

 

[Bear Rider]

Here here, Flash_in_the_pan! Blades are 100% quiet.

The blades may be, but the victims often scream a lot. ::

 

[IronMan]

I used to play in SCA as a Armored fighter. We practiced on pells and then proceeded to beat the $hit out of each other on the field with rattan. My fighting style was Florentine,that is to say long sword in strong hand and knife or hand axe in the off hand. I also own and workout with live steel,all European, on pells made from landscape timbers covered with tire rubber and canvas. I have ordered a "hawke" and when it arrives I will try fighting practice on the pells with it also.

IronMan

 

Maybe I missed it but I didn't notice that anyone mentioned one of the most important results of hand to hand training - it builds confidence. A man who is completely confident in hostile surroundings will use his primary weapons more skillfully.

I'm also sure you knife fighters have seen the exercise of two trained knife men donning white gi uniforms and going at it with red magic markers. It's usually a sobering demo of how badly cut-up both combatants can get from a short encounter. About twenty years ago, a good friend of my wife's brother got sliced up one night with a carpet knife in a bar. The cuts weren't deep but took over 200 stitches. The fight lasted less than a minute but the recovery was measured in months. I also grew up in an area where knives were very common and brought out at a moment's notice - it paid to watch what you said and how long you stared at anyone. Most fights that actually come to engagement are over in a couple of strokes.

 

[jim gray]

I'm also sure you knife fighters have seen the exercise of two trained knife men donning white gi uniforms and going at it with red magic markers. It's usually a sobering demo of how badly cut-up both combatants can get from a short encounter. About twenty years ago, a good friend of my wife's brother got sliced up one night with a carpet knife in a bar. The cuts weren't deep but took over 200 stitches.

I became convinced that the best way to use edged weapon in actual combat would be for sentry removal, where you could end the fight before your foe knew that he was in a fight. Confident or not the one thing that I did learn during my service was that the typical American soldier, apart from elite forces, is among the poorest trained in the world in hand to hand weapons.