Anyone here have experience with Military Heritage .com ML's?

[FlinterNick]

I don’t particularly like the Indian made guns, has nothing to do with their safety. The safety of the gun relies on the user and owner of the gun in my opinion.

However I think most Indian made guns look like poor quality, too me I’d rather spend 700 -1000 on a kit build for the gun I dream of owning.

1. Teak sucks, its a horrible gunstock wood for inletting and finishing.
2. The locks are usually bad quality, not hardened right.
3. The locks look cheaply made, not a whole lot of original character.
4. Over polished with 5000-10000 grit, most original muskets were polished up to a satin finish, around 600-1000 grit, I shouldn’t be able to see my face on the barrel.
5. Brass isn’t the right type.
6. Barrels have about 2-3 lbs of extra weight, total gun weight is 12-15 lbs on some guns that are supposed to weight 8-10lbs.

Most people who buy Indian guns at the excuse of saving a buck or two, end up dumping another 200-500 into the gun to make it appear more authentic.

If you want a rifled Baker Rifle, for heavens sake.... Buy a real baker reproduction from Dyson, or Rifle shoppe.

 

[tenngun]

That’s not correct they don’t sell guns from the same distributor.

Some of the guns have blown up, with no fatalities. The most common ones that have accidentally burst were by Middlesex in particular their Long land Bess and their enfield.

The guy from Middlesex assembles those guns in some capacity, its likely his error that may cause them to burst.

One Brown Bess had a lug dovetailed to the underside of the barrel, which is correct if done very shallow and carefully. I suspect that this might have been the flaw, if this part of the barrel was where the DOM seam may have been the weakest, and with a dirty bore and 100-120 grain loads could very well cause a barrel to blow.

I would be interested in knowing the details, you said it was likely the installers error, based on what? As you say you suspect. I suspect the gun was poorly cared for and perhaps overloaded, or ball not driven home. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
Was middlesex sued for producing a faulty product?

 

[FlinterNick]

I would be interested in knowing the details, you said it was likely the installers error, based on what? As you say you suspect. I suspect the gun was poorly cared for and perhaps overloaded, or ball not driven home. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
Was middlesex sued for producing a faulty product?

One the Bess muskets from Middlesex that burst was for a fella in one of the NJ regiments.

It split right up from the underseam of the barrel where the DOM weld is closed. It was inspected and subsequently determined that a build up occurred 12 inches from the breech where the under lug was dovetailed to the barrel. Naturally the dovetail was over the welding seam. Its very possible that powder some how got trapped in that section of the barrel where an obstruction occured and burned down instead of up.

Middlesex has put a few bad products out there, an enfield, Brown Bess and Springfield. I’d trust their Indian made guns the least.

I’d say if you’re gona buy Indian buy from Loyalist Arms, they produce a nice product for an Indian made gun.

 

[tenngun]

You aw this? You know for sure it was well maintained and he got the ball seated ?

 

[FlinterNick]

You aw this? You know for sure it was well maintained and he got the ball seated ?

I saw photos of, wasn’t in my group.

Most reinactor s don’t take care of their guns, so I’d say it was likely dirty.

There was no ball, it was just a blank round, probably around 100 grains.

 

[tenngun]

Well in absence of the details and the guns condition I would hesitate to blame the barrel

 

[Grenadier1758]

We've talked about this particular incident in the past. I posted pictures and a copy of the HP White report.

Indian Muskets | The Muzzleloading Forum

HP White was only asked to test the quality of the steel in the barrel and not to speculate on the cause of the burst.

 

[FlinterNick]

Well in absence of the details and the guns condition I would hesitate to blame the barrel

Most black powder guns that have blown up are due to a combination of a few things.

1. Most of all, user fault. Failure to clean or attempts to re-engineer the gun to a fault.
2. The Gunbuilder risk, in that the gun maker’s craftsmanship isn’t the best, this usually will cause to gun to not work rather than explode.
3. Manufacturing of the barrel, if the barrel isn’t bored correctly or formed correctly or drilled correctly, it increases the risks.
4. Black powder guns are generally pipe bombs, so there’s always risks every time you pull that trigger.
5. Overcharging the gun.
6. Mixing powders, a very dangerous practice, if one mixes 4F with 2F makes a nice flash but can have dangerous consequences.
7. Using smokeless powder is a for sure way to blow up a musket.
8. Objects left in the gun, if a patch is down there and powder is poured on top of it, you’re essentially making a fuse.

 

[FlinterNick]

We've talked about this particular incident in the past. I posted pictures and a copy of the HP White report.

Indian Muskets | The Muzzleloading Forum

HP White was only asked to test the quality of the steel in the barrel and not to speculate on the cause of the burst.

That particular incident was an interesting one.

Many people had suspected that an overcharge of 3F was used, in any event the barrel split at its mandrel seam, which means the weld wasn’t done correctly. The actual steel wasn’t really the issue.

On some Indian made barrels, the barrels are often oversized and extra heavy, making one thing it can take tons of pressure, but with a thick barrel that has a tighter taper, exploding isn’t so far fetched with a heavy load and incorrect powder type.

One that I had discussed a few years back the issue was that the barrel wasn’t tapered right and could only fire blanks, the result was inside the barrel residue built up about 18-20 inches up from the breech where the tapper had a hot spot, causing the barrel to not blow up but deform.

 

[Irishmusket]

I have been a real gunsmith for over 40 years over last 10 years I have vented and made ready to shoot more than 100 Indian made muskets .refurbished well used ones .Indian made musket and muzzle loading shotguns have been around for 400 years .Two of the current makers and exporters have been making guns for well over 250 years .In the early 1970s Navy Arms imported Indian made double barrel and single barrel percussion shotguns and smoothbore enfield percussion muskets and carbines .have one shotgun and one three band enfield both have seen heavy service over the last forty years never had an issue .never had any issues with Indian muskets at all nor have any of my customers .In my line of work I have dealt with black powder guns that have failed some terribly some where people have been maimed and one sadly killed none of these guns were Indian made One catastrophic breech failure 1853 enfield Armi sport minor injury to shooter he was shooting blanks bore was extremely dirty over loaded 150 grains 3ffg .2 A Tc Hawken 50 cal the gun barrel burst shattering the stock causing severe injury to the shooter he almost lost left arm cause he made a serious error he loaded the rifle twice .3 A CVA Apollo inline Catastrophic breech failure serious and debilitating injury loss of one eye nerve damage to left hand cause breech failure . factory defect Heavy charge .4 pedersoli 12 gauge double barrel percussion burst barrel cause overloaded 110 grains fffg 1&1/2 onces of shot .after firing the right barrel when fired the left barrel it exploded no injuries amazingly the gun ruined .cause the recoil from the right barrel loosened the charge in the left barrel causing gap between the powder wads and shot which acts like barrel obstruction with barrel dangerously overloaded it burst .

 

[Leadball loader]

The OP of this thread certainly got a lot of opinion in the posts here.
I suspect he will spend a lot of time pondering them.
My experience has been a successful one with Military Heritage guns only because I was not expecting a gun that would not need to be worked on for best experience shooting. I believe the information on their product description accurately describes the product they sell. It does not describe barrels that are welded.
The choice of their product means you make the decision to shoot and for me and many others that has given many hours of enjoyment shooting safely.
LBL

 

[Gary Wriede]

I see them advertised online, and in several magaizne. I am getting an itch for a smooth flinter, and these prices look very affordable. All you have to do is drill a touch hole or drill and tap it for a liner. They have threaded breech plugs, and hardened frizzens. All feedback appreciated, from someone who has owned one of these.
[/QUOTEI have a pistol from them. It's from Frederick the Greats' Cavalry, .62 cal.and the breech has no plug. It's made in India, and is a fair gun for the price.

 

[Redstick Lee]

I had to do extensive lock & spring work on mine to make it an acceptable firearm.
For the budget conscious person willing (and experienced) at tuning locks and working springs, they're a good bang for the buck

 

[Sidney Smith]

Cheap out on a muzzleloader, then accept the risk of needing to have extra work done to get the gun to work properly. Cheap out and expect the chance of the gun to fail. Not worth it in my opinion. Spend the extra money and get a real muzzle loader.

 

[FlinterNick]

I had to do extensive lock & spring work on mine to make it an acceptable firearm.
For the budget conscious person willing (and experienced) at tuning locks and working springs, they're a good bang for the buck

That’s where I find Indian made arms ‘unacceptable’ if you need to do extensive work on the springs to have a serviceable lock (or even marginal) then I find them unworthy.

Now please bear in mind I’m thinking about the non-experienced gun collector or gunsmith who buys the gun for $700 and then has to pay someone like yourself with lock experience 100-200 for the work and then potential other costs for defarbing.

At the end of the day you’re near $1,000 + or >.

And I’ve seen fellas pour cash into Indian made arms to have it the way they want it customized. Baker Rifles are the most common and for a rifled barrel by Colerain or Rayel, you’re now up to around $1500-2,000.

 

[FlinterNick]

Cheap out on a muzzleloader, then accept the risk of needing to have extra work done to get the gun to work properly. Cheap out and expect the chance of the gun to fail. Not worth it in my opinion. Spend the extra money and get a real muzzle loader.

I agree 100%.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Part of the allure of the India sourced muskets is their cost. The other is that if you want to reenact properly for the French and Indian War, the source for Long Land Pattern Muskets is going to be an India Sourced musket or a kit from the Rifle Shoppe or Track of the Wolf. Some Long Land Pattern Muskets show up in the used market, but they are few and far between. The watch words offered by the other posters are right on. An India musket will be heavy and may require some work to bring it into serviceable operation. I reenact properly for the F&I. I have a Loyalist Arms Long Land Pattern Musket. I could not afford the wait or the cost to build a Rifle Shoppe Musket.

 

[samk]

Thanks for all the replies, I can tune a flintlock with no problem, will proably get one just to tinker with, and shoot occasionally, would make a good squirrel gun.

 

[tenngun]

The 1970s was a shinning time for our sport. Even hardware stores offered a section for blackpowder guns. I was stationed in San Diego and used to visit a good sized all black powder shop called Patch and ball, LA had several shops that were all BP or had large BP sections.
And magazines were seen in grocery stores.
John, then later his son David Baird put out the Blackpowder Report, combining two other magazines. The Buckskin report and a mag on black powder cartridge guns.
There was a cartoon I remember.a very greasy looking Mountain Man was trading a rifle for a pile of fur. ‘Well chief because I like you I’ll give you this fine rifle for that pile of mangy fur.’ The rifle, that looked like a ‘CVA mountain rifle and had CVA in big letters on a price tag tied on the trigger gaurd.
John Baird spent a lot of time telling the world how bad CVA was. And not a little about Italian arms, and Japanese guns that were also a focus of his ire.
I bet if some one had one of those old 1970s CVA and tossed it in to group of 1850s plains guns few would notice it without an inspection.
Put that same gun on our classified section it would sell pretty quick.
What will we think of Loyalist of Military Heritage in twenty years I wonder?

 

[Sidney Smith]

I can tell you now what Ill think of Indian guns 20 years from now. The same as as I do today.