Hello forum i recently bought a book about brown bess muskets, and am flipping through them looking at what my musket compares to, it seems to be a hybrid of a 1742 musket with a steel ramrod. The stock styles are not close to the original styles, this is obvious. Can i make my brown bess more authentic ? The original brown bess locks seem so much nicer and the the architecture of the originals just catches your eye, are the rifle shop’s brown Bess’s better and more original ?
-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Authenticity of Veteran Arms Brown Bess Muskets
- Thread starter Aglukan
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2005
- Messages
- 5,223
- Reaction score
- 10,881
Hi,
No commercially produced Brown Bess reproduction made today is authentic or representative of the workmanship found on original British muskets. Your musket is probably what they sell as a "pattern 1748" musket. You can make it more authentic by getting rid of the lock moldings, thinning them dramatically, changing the trigger guard for the proper style not the 1730 style, reshaping the tip of the ramrod correctly, replacing the nose cap with one shaped and installed correctly, and trimming down and reshaping the carved apron around the barrel tang. The lock will have to be worked over to bring it up to a standard expected of the originals. Even with all that work, you will still have issues. Measure the outside diameter of your barrel at the breech. The originals were 1.35-1.42" in diameter. The outside diameter of the muzzle should be 0.91". I'll bet your barrel is barely 1.09" at the breech and about 0.88" at the muzzle. Those dimensions change the entire architecture of the gun.
Part sets from TRS are about the best you can do with respect to authenticity. They are cast from originals and generally have the correct dimensions albeit sometimes slightly smaller likely due to shrinkage during casting. The barrels are very close to the originals and you can build up the locks into ones that are historically correct and made to the original high standards. Here are a couple of Bess locks I made that would pass muster with British ordnance. Take your lock off and compare it with mine.
Now look at the inletting in your lock mortise and compare it with this done the way they were originally made.
Here is the mortise on an India made short land Bess that we recently repaired.
My example is a pattern 1730 so the carved lock moldings are appropriate unlike all later pattern Besses. Note how thin the flat surrounding the lock is and no need for that ugly notch to clear the flint ****. The precarved stocks supplied with TRS sets are usually pretty authentic but the machine inletting of components like ramrod pipes and butt plates can be off a bit. On the pattern 1742 parts that I recently ordered, I asked that the stock only be fitted for the barrel and ramrod, and roughly profiled. No other machine inletting. We will see how it goes.
dave
No commercially produced Brown Bess reproduction made today is authentic or representative of the workmanship found on original British muskets. Your musket is probably what they sell as a "pattern 1748" musket. You can make it more authentic by getting rid of the lock moldings, thinning them dramatically, changing the trigger guard for the proper style not the 1730 style, reshaping the tip of the ramrod correctly, replacing the nose cap with one shaped and installed correctly, and trimming down and reshaping the carved apron around the barrel tang. The lock will have to be worked over to bring it up to a standard expected of the originals. Even with all that work, you will still have issues. Measure the outside diameter of your barrel at the breech. The originals were 1.35-1.42" in diameter. The outside diameter of the muzzle should be 0.91". I'll bet your barrel is barely 1.09" at the breech and about 0.88" at the muzzle. Those dimensions change the entire architecture of the gun.
Part sets from TRS are about the best you can do with respect to authenticity. They are cast from originals and generally have the correct dimensions albeit sometimes slightly smaller likely due to shrinkage during casting. The barrels are very close to the originals and you can build up the locks into ones that are historically correct and made to the original high standards. Here are a couple of Bess locks I made that would pass muster with British ordnance. Take your lock off and compare it with mine.
Now look at the inletting in your lock mortise and compare it with this done the way they were originally made.
Here is the mortise on an India made short land Bess that we recently repaired.
My example is a pattern 1730 so the carved lock moldings are appropriate unlike all later pattern Besses. Note how thin the flat surrounding the lock is and no need for that ugly notch to clear the flint ****. The precarved stocks supplied with TRS sets are usually pretty authentic but the machine inletting of components like ramrod pipes and butt plates can be off a bit. On the pattern 1742 parts that I recently ordered, I asked that the stock only be fitted for the barrel and ramrod, and roughly profiled. No other machine inletting. We will see how it goes.
dave
Thank you Dave.
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 2,263
- Reaction score
- 3,625
Thinning down the stock will do much, it's far easier to remove wood than put it back on. The rifle shop makes some very nice parts sets but don't assume building one will be easy like a kibler. To have someone else do it you will easily have 2-3 times the cost of a gun from veteran arms.
Hi,
No commercially produced Brown Bess reproduction made today is authentic or representative of the workmanship found on original British muskets. Your musket is probably what they sell as a "pattern 1748" musket. You can make it more authentic by getting rid of the lock moldings, thinning them dramatically, changing the trigger guard for the proper style not the 1730 style, reshaping the tip of the ramrod correctly, replacing the nose cap with one shaped and installed correctly, and trimming down and reshaping the carved apron around the barrel tang. The lock will have to be worked over to bring it up to a standard expected of the originals. Even with all that work, you will still have issues. Measure the outside diameter of your barrel at the breech. The originals were 1.35-1.42" in diameter. The outside diameter of the muzzle should be 0.91". I'll bet your barrel is barely 1.09" at the breech and about 0.88" at the muzzle. Those dimensions change the entire architecture of the gun.
Part sets from TRS are about the best you can do with respect to authenticity. They are cast from originals and generally have the correct dimensions albeit sometimes slightly smaller likely due to shrinkage during casting. The barrels are very close to the originals and you can build up the locks into ones that are historically correct and made to the original high standards. Here are a couple of Bess locks I made that would pass muster with British ordnance. Take your lock off and compare it with mine.
Now look at the inletting in your lock mortise and compare it with this done the way they were originally made.
Here is the mortise on an India made short land Bess that we recently repaired.
My example is a pattern 1730 so the carved lock moldings are appropriate unlike all later pattern Besses. Note how thin the flat surrounding the lock is and no need for that ugly notch to clear the flint ****. The precarved stocks supplied with TRS sets are usually pretty authentic but the machine inletting of components like ramrod pipes and butt plates can be off a bit. On the pattern 1742 parts that I recently ordered, I asked that the stock only be fitted for the barrel and ramrod, and roughly profiled. No other machine inletting. We will see how it goes.
dave
Thank you Dave, the barrel is just around what you said it would be. It sounds like its supposed be some type of Morse or Jacob’s type taper. Looking forward to your project as it develops. The more i learn about the Brown Bess the more I’m not really pleased with my decision, i really wish i had done my research. Fortunately i was invited to check out someone’s rifle shoppe guns, I’m sure its going to sink in much worse.
My last gun from middlesex cost me around 650 and a 4 year wait and then my newer gun cost me 700. The middlesex bess did not work and cost me to sell it and the grief that came along with trying to return it, all in all I’ve spent close to 1300 on these. At this point money is not a problem.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 2,263
- Reaction score
- 3,625
Veteran and Middlesex use different builders and it shows. As Dave says
To get what you want will most likely involve having one built for you.
Where did Dave say Veteran Arms and Middlesex Trading use different builders?
I’m not concerned about comparing the two companies products.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2019
- Messages
- 8,383
- Reaction score
- 9,771
The India-made muskets use some sort of wood from India, can't recall what it is? Teak?
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 2,263
- Reaction score
- 3,625
Dave didn't, i did. Loyalist uses the same builder as veteran. I'm not sure if heritage is the same as Middlesex but I believe they are.
“Veteran and Middlesex use different builders and it shows. As Dave says“ you were quoting him ?
Thank you sir, will look for a builder.
I’m familiar with wood types this is not any type of teak i have seen. For now its mystery wood.
Hi,
No commercially produced Brown Bess reproduction made today is authentic or representative of the workmanship found on original British muskets. Your musket is probably what they sell as a "pattern 1748" musket. You can make it more authentic by getting rid of the lock moldings, thinning them dramatically, changing the trigger guard for the proper style not the 1730 style, reshaping the tip of the ramrod correctly, replacing the nose cap with one shaped and installed correctly, and trimming down and reshaping the carved apron around the barrel tang. The lock will have to be worked over to bring it up to a standard expected of the originals. Even with all that work, you will still have issues. Measure the outside diameter of your barrel at the breech. The originals were 1.35-1.42" in diameter. The outside diameter of the muzzle should be 0.91". I'll bet your barrel is barely 1.09" at the breech and about 0.88" at the muzzle. Those dimensions change the entire architecture of the gun.
Part sets from TRS are about the best you can do with respect to authenticity. They are cast from originals and generally have the correct dimensions albeit sometimes slightly smaller likely due to shrinkage during casting. The barrels are very close to the originals and you can build up the locks into ones that are historically correct and made to the original high standards. Here are a couple of Bess locks I made that would pass muster with British ordnance. Take your lock off and compare it with mine.
Now look at the inletting in your lock mortise and compare it with this done the way they were originally made.
Here is the mortise on an India made short land Bess that we recently repaired.
My example is a pattern 1730 so the carved lock moldings are appropriate unlike all later pattern Besses. Note how thin the flat surrounding the lock is and no need for that ugly notch to clear the flint ****. The precarved stocks supplied with TRS sets are usually pretty authentic but the machine inletting of components like ramrod pipes and butt plates can be off a bit. On the pattern 1742 parts that I recently ordered, I asked that the stock only be fitted for the barrel and ramrod, and roughly profiled. No other machine inletting. We will see how it goes.
dave
Dave is the barrel bigger for safety reasons ?
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 2,263
- Reaction score
- 3,625
There is a period there, then I proceeded to specify what Dave was saying in the quotes.
No there is not a period there.
Attachments
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2019
- Messages
- 8,383
- Reaction score
- 9,771
Most of the India guns seem very similar. I always assumed they used the same group of shops; an older Bess I have has Udairpur (sp.?) marked on the barrel. I seem to recall Vet Arms saying they disassemble and stain their muskets here at their shop. One thing to do is read the importer's statements on their site. I ordered 2 or 3 muskets years back from Vet and they were nice to deal with, very responsive. I'd order from them again if needed. Also check out their new Bess Bayonet, with the clever fitting feature. The India-mades certainly seem to fill a needed niche in the re-enacting world.
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2012
- Messages
- 2,263
- Reaction score
- 3,625
Seriously guys? The period is after "shows" terminating the previous sentence. The next sentence begins with "As" which is capitalized, there is no period after as it continues with the quote as to what he says.
yeah.....
Last edited:
Thanks, but if i have a question about something someone else writes. I will be sure to ask them. Thanks again, and sorry for being confused.
Similar threads
- Locked
