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"Average" Smooth(bore)rifle Diameter?
- Thread starter Alden
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I have a book published by the Kentucky Rifle Association in 1967 which had pictures and some specs on 100 rifles. There are 20 smooth rifles in the bunch, here are the calibers:
45, 45, 45
46
47,47
49
50, 50, 50, 50, 50
52, 52
54
56, 56
58, 58
59
I found it interesting that 23 of the 100 rifles were percussion ignition, but all the smooth rifles were flintlocks.
This is just a small sample, of course, there are much bigger collections available.
If I could have only one gun it would be a 28 gauge/.55 caliber flintlock smooth rifle. It can handle anything I hunt and do it well.
Spence
45, 45, 45
46
47,47
49
50, 50, 50, 50, 50
52, 52
54
56, 56
58, 58
59
I found it interesting that 23 of the 100 rifles were percussion ignition, but all the smooth rifles were flintlocks.
This is just a small sample, of course, there are much bigger collections available.
If I could have only one gun it would be a 28 gauge/.55 caliber flintlock smooth rifle. It can handle anything I hunt and do it well.
Spence
Although I sometimes find myself swaying between 28 & 20ga smoothrifles for a best single Flintlock, I will also agree the 28ga is hard to beat for what I hunt.Spence10 said:
It is also why I had that particular Early Virginia built with a pair of matching / interchangeable Rice barrels... .54cal smooth & .45cal rifled...for some flexibility and economical year round range plinking in case through retirement I began selling off excess Flintlocks.
But I'd fight you if you tried to make me give up either one of them right now...LOL.
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Mine is going to be a fifty and rather petite.
Thanks for the info compiled on smooth rifles.
Thanks for the info compiled on smooth rifles.
I have only had two 20 ga/62 caliber..one fowler, one smooth rifle. Since the game I would pursue with them also includes turkey, and my state has a minimum 20 ga (just reduced from 12) anything less in caliber/ga would mean I couldn't use it for turkey, which is a non-starter for me.
I'm curious about the effectiveness of a 28 gauge with shot on turkey. Not the "Roundball" one 54 cal "shot" version, but 4's or less in size. But that discussion is for some other post as I don't want to hijack this one. :grin:
I'm curious about the effectiveness of a 28 gauge with shot on turkey. Not the "Roundball" one 54 cal "shot" version, but 4's or less in size. But that discussion is for some other post as I don't want to hijack this one. :grin:
Thanks Spence -- great post!
I am not particularly surprised by the "smoothrifles" being flints and not percussions...
Historically, the flintlock was phasing out as an ignition technology at the same time that the era of smoothbore longarms being the state of the art was coming to an end. Percussion Caps and caplocks were coming into their own at the same time that industry was making rifling relatively easy to do and affordable, wealth was growing and folk needing them could choose a more tailored arm and maybe even more than one, marksmanship had made it into the American psyche and global lexicon, rifles were making their way into ludite militaries, and (most pronounced in the leading civilian arena) longarms naturally became bifurcated into either rifle or shotgun to be applied very much as we think of them being today I believe.
I am not particularly surprised by the "smoothrifles" being flints and not percussions...
Historically, the flintlock was phasing out as an ignition technology at the same time that the era of smoothbore longarms being the state of the art was coming to an end. Percussion Caps and caplocks were coming into their own at the same time that industry was making rifling relatively easy to do and affordable, wealth was growing and folk needing them could choose a more tailored arm and maybe even more than one, marksmanship had made it into the American psyche and global lexicon, rifles were making their way into ludite militaries, and (most pronounced in the leading civilian arena) longarms naturally became bifurcated into either rifle or shotgun to be applied very much as we think of them being today I believe.
Birdwatcher
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Here's one that's different...
p.188 of Gales' "For Trade and Treaty" (2010) book on American Indian firearms:
A ca. 1850 percussion Leman smooth rifle, 32" barrel cal. .575 . Weight 8lbs 11oz.
The author states "Smooth rifles such as this one increased in popularity in the 1830's and 40's but never superseded northwest guns or shotguns."
I'm guessing he's speaking of the Indian trade.
Birdwatcher
p.188 of Gales' "For Trade and Treaty" (2010) book on American Indian firearms:
A ca. 1850 percussion Leman smooth rifle, 32" barrel cal. .575 . Weight 8lbs 11oz.
The author states "Smooth rifles such as this one increased in popularity in the 1830's and 40's but never superseded northwest guns or shotguns."
I'm guessing he's speaking of the Indian trade.
Birdwatcher
Grandpa Ron
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If memory serves, Hamilton’s book on trade guns shows the native culture preferred the smaller bores. Judging from the excavated balls and barrels, the average bore diameter being around .570” or 24 ga.
The Hudson’s Bay Company also indicated the native culture preferred the smaller bore diameters.
Maybe, coming from a bow culture, native hunting was up close and personal, or it is likely that less powder and lead was dictated by the scarcity of materials on the frontier.
However, in the “Flintlock Fowler” book, many of the non-native guns were large bore, often 12 ga. or bigger. I would think that if your primary target was waterfowl, a bigger bore would be better, plus you can cram a lot of buck shot down a 12 bore for deer sized targets. Also the same gun would be used for service in the militia.
If I were simulating a Colonial, I would have a 12 ga. If I were simulating a native culture or a person in close contact with them such a voyageur our trader I would carry a 20 ga. or smaller.
Switching to modern times with improved materials, I shoot 1 ¼ oz. of #6 and #7 ½ shot out of my 20 ga. for turkeys. Because it is a cylinder bore I keep may range down to 20 yards or less and therefore do not need the extra range provided by the larger #4 or #5 shot. I trade range for pattern density.
I have not yet worked up a turkey load for my 28 ga.
The Hudson’s Bay Company also indicated the native culture preferred the smaller bore diameters.
Maybe, coming from a bow culture, native hunting was up close and personal, or it is likely that less powder and lead was dictated by the scarcity of materials on the frontier.
However, in the “Flintlock Fowler” book, many of the non-native guns were large bore, often 12 ga. or bigger. I would think that if your primary target was waterfowl, a bigger bore would be better, plus you can cram a lot of buck shot down a 12 bore for deer sized targets. Also the same gun would be used for service in the militia.
If I were simulating a Colonial, I would have a 12 ga. If I were simulating a native culture or a person in close contact with them such a voyageur our trader I would carry a 20 ga. or smaller.
Switching to modern times with improved materials, I shoot 1 ¼ oz. of #6 and #7 ½ shot out of my 20 ga. for turkeys. Because it is a cylinder bore I keep may range down to 20 yards or less and therefore do not need the extra range provided by the larger #4 or #5 shot. I trade range for pattern density.
I have not yet worked up a turkey load for my 28 ga.
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Thanks for the good idea!
Grandpa Ron
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Round Ball
Nice pattern at 25 yards, should kill a bird easy. What load combination do you use?
My 20 ga. cylinder bore pattern at 20 yards is about 30 inches with a powder/card wad/cushion wad/shot/over shot card load.
In Indiana we are a bit limited our rule book states;
Legal Equipment
Turkeys can be hunted only with:
”¢ A 10-, 12-, 16- or 20-gauge shotgun loaded with pellets of size No. 4, 5, 6, 7 or 7½.
”¢ A muzzleloading shotgun not smaller than 20-gauge and not larger than 10-gauge, loaded with pellets of size No. 4, 5, 6, 7 or 7½. Combination loads using shot sizes other than these are illegal.
Ӣ Bow and arrow
Ӣ A crossbow
Nice pattern at 25 yards, should kill a bird easy. What load combination do you use?
My 20 ga. cylinder bore pattern at 20 yards is about 30 inches with a powder/card wad/cushion wad/shot/over shot card load.
In Indiana we are a bit limited our rule book states;
Legal Equipment
Turkeys can be hunted only with:
”¢ A 10-, 12-, 16- or 20-gauge shotgun loaded with pellets of size No. 4, 5, 6, 7 or 7½.
”¢ A muzzleloading shotgun not smaller than 20-gauge and not larger than 10-gauge, loaded with pellets of size No. 4, 5, 6, 7 or 7½. Combination loads using shot sizes other than these are illegal.
Ӣ Bow and arrow
Ӣ A crossbow
simeon england
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Howdy!
Two pards of mine have done research on this very subject. Each studying just over 100 period (mid to late 18th century) long guns, the average bore size was .52", the average length of barrel was 42". Both were separate attempts to get the average, one from the Ohio ares, the other from Kentucky area.
After the Indian wars of the 18th century, and much of the large game was hunted or chased out of the "frontier", the bore sizes started getting smaller.
Hope this helps.
Two pards of mine have done research on this very subject. Each studying just over 100 period (mid to late 18th century) long guns, the average bore size was .52", the average length of barrel was 42". Both were separate attempts to get the average, one from the Ohio ares, the other from Kentucky area.
After the Indian wars of the 18th century, and much of the large game was hunted or chased out of the "frontier", the bore sizes started getting smaller.
Hope this helps.
Hello all, noob here, so I'll try my best not to make a fool out of myself with my first post. With respect to trade guns, I have before me an order for trade goods sent from Daniel Campbell, one of the leading fur merchants of Schenectady, NY to his London supplier on Nov 4, 1771. Campbell was ordering goods he would send to his partners in Detroit who would distribute them to the retail traders who went out to the Indian villages and bartered for furs. That list includes 6000 "fusil balls 28 to the lb". His partners also traded with the local French settlers at Detroit but from what I've read above these were most likely meant for the Indian trade. I've seen other orders of his that include "fusils" but I don't recall that he specified the gauge or caliber. It was as if his supplier knew what he meant, as though 28 was a "standard". I could be wrong, though, so don't take that as gospel until I've had a chance to go through his papers again.
I'm wondering whether 28 ga balls would be more accurate because they have a smaller frontal area? Any thoughts or shooting experiences you would care to share with me on this will be gratefully appreciated. The Indians were formidable woods fighters and I've been trying to understand their tactics, especially whether they were firing single balls or large shot. There is a reference in the papers of Sir William Johnson regarding a F & I battle at Lake Champlain in which an Iroquois warrior ran up to within "10 paces" IIRC and shot an opposing Indian in the chest with a load of "swan shot", killing him. I'm assuming swan shot is about the biggest "birdshot" there would have been. Anyone have any range results shooting that stuff?
I'm wondering whether 28 ga balls would be more accurate because they have a smaller frontal area? Any thoughts or shooting experiences you would care to share with me on this will be gratefully appreciated. The Indians were formidable woods fighters and I've been trying to understand their tactics, especially whether they were firing single balls or large shot. There is a reference in the papers of Sir William Johnson regarding a F & I battle at Lake Champlain in which an Iroquois warrior ran up to within "10 paces" IIRC and shot an opposing Indian in the chest with a load of "swan shot", killing him. I'm assuming swan shot is about the biggest "birdshot" there would have been. Anyone have any range results shooting that stuff?
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