Ball flattening on impact or no?

[tddeangelo]

So, I shot my 62 cal long rifle into water jugs yesterday.

I'm shooting 120gr 2F with a 0.600 ball and 0.024 pillow ticking patches. That combo is giving me 2" groups off the bench at 50 yard and 4" at 100, with very manageable recoil. My rifle has a 46" Hoyt barrel and is very stable and well balanced.

My first try at the jugs (at 25 yards) had the ball go out the side of the third jug. I reset and shot again. The ball came out the back of the 5th jug and deflected at the jugs handle, so I didn't catch the ball. The marks on the 4th and 5th jugs looked to be made by a completely unchanged ball. In other words, the dented plastic flaps pushed open by the ball looked to be made by a perfectly spherical ball.

I had sort of anticipated some flattening of the ball, but that doesn't appear to be the case? I did not cast these balls, but they are pure lead I believe.

To get the trajectory my rifle is giving, the round ball trajectory calculator says the ball has to be doing about 1750fps at the muzzle (I'm getting 2" high at 50 and 1-1.5" low at 100). I'd think if a ball would flatten, this charge would do it.

Is this fairly typical for balls to resist deformation?

I'm just curious about it. With 0.600 balls, I can't see there being any worries about wound channels for hunting.

 

[larry wv]

I shoot sand so don't know about water. But sand flattens pretty good,

Larry

 

[hanshi]

From what I've been able to tell a ball starts to flatten after it penetrates the skin. This doesn't happen suddenly but very gradually as the ball moves through the internals. That's why it is often found just under the off side skin, flattened.

 

[robinsroost]

An interesting question that I cannot answer because I've never recovered one out of a critter. Keep yer powder dry......Robin

 

[roundball]

Agree no wound channel worries with large calibers...IMO, anything that makes a 1/2" or larger hole through vitals doesn't need to expand...have tested solid brass balls as possible non-lead alternatives and they kill just as dead as if it was an expanding lead ball.

To your question about lead balls expanding, I recovered this .600” cast ball from a Buck I shot”¦facing me at 40 yards I made a heart shot into his chest, the ball traveled the full length of his body and stopped, bulging the hide on the back side of his right ham”¦nicked the hide with the tip of my knife and it fell out.

My hunting load out of that 33” GM barrel was:
100grns Goex 2F
.62cal Oxyoke prelubed wad
.018” Oxyoke prelubed pillow ticking
Eddie May .600 cast lead ball

 

[tddeangelo]

That's pretty cool! Did you hit bone in the brisket or maybe the femur?

I'm guessing with my long barrel and fairly stout charge, I'm not going to have to sweat penetration on a whitetail....

 

[BrownBear]

Here's a fuzzygraph of both sides of a .530 ball launched by 90 grains of 3f face-on, midway up a buck's neck at 55 yards. Recovered under the hide at the back of the neck. Clanked a whole bunch of bone going through, completely severing the spine. Only ball I've ever recovered from game.

 

[roundball]

Did you hit bone in the brisket or maybe the femur?

Don't know...didn't open him up...give them all away to a couple needy families.


This one is a .58cal (.570”) from a high shoulder shot designed to take out the vertebrae a few weeks ago, and it definitely shows it went through the bony structure of the vertebrae.

 

[tddeangelo]

Gotcha.

Thank you (and the others) for posting. Appreciate the shared experience. I'm looking forward to getting this rifle to the woods and sending one of these fat 0.600 balls at a deer!

 

[bendjoseph]

Where did you find the brass balls? I am a firm believer in complete penetration. Animals only bleed from the exit wound. I was going to try to hardened the lead balls by dropping them in water right after I cast them.

 

[KHickam]

I have only recovered one ball from a deer - it was a quartering shot on a nice buck - went through the ham of his leg - entered the chest cavity clipped liver and deflated one lung - found on the right side of his body - under skin - flattened to about the size of a nickel - .480 PRB over 120 grs of FFg

 

[roundball]

From a place called “Online Metals”...some photos.
The deer I shot was with a recovered / reused ball from a target box I had filled with rubber mulch.

 

[longcruise]

The word is that they have a large number of monkeys that they occasionally subject to extreme cold!

Water dropping pure lead will not harden them. Water dropping wheel weights can result in very hard balls. Probably much harder than desirable. Balls cast from WW and air cooled and then allowed to rest at room temperature for several weeks will run about 12 BHN.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Of the two slugs that I have recovered, they had both gone through a rib on each side of the deer, and stopped beneath the skin...so they were rather mashed up.

LD

 

[Stumpkiller]

Where did you find the brass balls? I am a firm believer in complete penetration. Animals only bleed from the exit wound. I was going to try to hardened the lead balls by dropping them in water right after I cast them.

That could be a bad idea. Keep water far away from your casting, as water near lead opens the possibility of water getting into the molten lead instead of the lead into water. A steam explosion will coat you and your workshop in very hot lead and spoil your whole day.

 

[rodwha]

Your calipers seem to read 0.62" and not .5625" that everything else states. Was this a typo or did you measure a different caliber ball?

 

[coloradoclyde]

So, I shot my 62 cal long rifle into water jugs yesterday.

I'm shooting 120gr 2F with a 0.600 ball and 0.024 pillow ticking patches. That combo is giving me 2" groups off the bench at 50 yard and 4" at 100, with very manageable recoil. My rifle has a 46" Hoyt barrel and is very stable and well balanced.

My first try at the jugs (at 25 yards) had the ball go out the side of the third jug. I reset and shot again. The ball came out the back of the 5th jug and deflected at the jugs handle, so I didn't catch the ball. The marks on the 4th and 5th jugs looked to be made by a completely unchanged ball. In other words, the dented plastic flaps pushed open by the ball looked to be made by a perfectly spherical ball.

I had sort of anticipated some flattening of the ball, but that doesn't appear to be the case? I did not cast these balls, but they are pure lead I believe.

To get the trajectory my rifle is giving, the round ball trajectory calculator says the ball has to be doing about 1750fps at the muzzle (I'm getting 2" high at 50 and 1-1.5" low at 100). I'd think if a ball would flatten, this charge would do it.

Is this fairly typical for balls to resist deformation?

I'm just curious about it. With 0.600 balls, I can't see there being any worries about wound channels for hunting.

Since no one has answered the original question, I'll take a stab at it.

Water jugs are a poor analogy for a deer. Water is not very dense and offers less resistance than a body.
Bodies are made up of things that behave much differently than water.
For example; 1. Blood is a non Newtonian fluid and water is a Newtonian fluid, the two behave differently when acted upon by a force.
2. There are tissues in a body as strong as steel (collagen). 3. Bone is 5-7 times harder than pure lead.

The path the bullet takes through a body greatly affects projectile deformation; for example a bullet traveling broadside through a
deer passing between the ribs and through the lungs and exiting between the ribs will remain virtually intact. Lungs offer little
resistance because they are filled with air.

Brute force will flatten a lead sphere, but as you probably already know modern projectiles use velocity, design, construction, and materials
to enhance bullet expansion.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Where did you find the brass balls? I am a firm believer in complete penetration. Animals only bleed from the exit wound. I was going to try to hardened the lead balls by dropping them in water right after I cast them.

As noted above, dropping them from a mold is a risky proposition. Balls can be heat hardened (annealed), but you're best off doing it in an oven. You only need about 400-450 degrees and and let them heat an hour or so. When you drop them into water, I'd suggest having a large sponge floating just below the water surface to cut down on splashing and allowing them to roll off just below the surface and drop more easily to the bottom of the pail or whatever. Remember that you're only going to be hardening an exterior layer...they won't be hard clear through, though will retain nearly all their weight. Whether this will dramatically help penetration is an arguable subject...I've heard both sides argued with conviction. I still believe an animal succumbs quicker to a ball staying inside and delivering all it's kinetic energy to the game. Just seems to have worked better for me through the years.

You can also temper lead based projectiles in similar manner. Heat as mentioned above, turn off stove and let them cool with the oven door cracked open. You will not turn WW lead into pure soft lead, but it will help to some degree...as marmotslayer said, to about 12 BHN. Can be a useful project. Some early conical projectiles were actually two part and had the nose area pure soft lead and the rear section either alloyed or annealed to withstand bore heat and pressure. No, I've never tried it! :wink:

 

[roundball]

Your calipers seem to read 0.62" and not .5625" that everything else states. Was this a typo or did you measure a different caliber ball?

LOL, never even noticed that...I suspect they moved around some with all the final arranging of items for the photo. The balls diameter and weight are the most precisely manufactured from one to the next that I have ever seen...all measure as printed on the package label and weigh 201 grains. The photos actually went with a full discussion / explanation of my tests a couple years ago.
Thanks for catching that...I went to Photobucket and cropped out the dial part of the calipers but I see it did not change here in the MLF...maybe it will in time...if it's still here hours from now I'll ask 'Stumpkiller' if he'd be good enough to delete that particular photo URL from my post and substitute this one, as I wouldn't want anyone to be mislead.

 

[roundball]

Well darn...the photo is changed on Photobucket, but the URL brings up the old photo...maybe the MLF and/or PB systems takes a while to catch up.

STUMPKILLER...If you'd be good enough to delete the photos with the calipers in it I'd appreciate it.