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ball size variations?

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ballandcap

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bought some hornandy .490 from Cabelas and took them to the range Sat. My renegade flinter has a QLA and used a .020 pre-lubed patch, I couldn't thuumb start this combo which I thought was strange. used my short starter and was very tight just in the QLA. I could not get the ball down. had to use a Brass rod w. jag and use a hammer to get to seat, had to hit hard! thought maybe double patched it. shot it, then tried again. this time I used a .018 square cut ticking cut for my .45 at 1 3/16". This was just as tight. would have never got it down in the field or hunting situation without a sturdy rod and hammer.

took a ball to work today and had a guy measure it. it varied from .490-.496, looked like it kind of had a ridge around it. is this normal to vary this much?

I have never had a problem with any gun and ball/patch combo before. I have been buying and shooting the hornandy's and has been fine till now.

does anybody actually take the time to measure every ball? should I return them and try again?

I shot the gun before with .495 and a .010 and thumb started and loaded just fine.
 
YOu can even out those balls by putting them in a case tumbler, or a case vibrator, without polishing grit, and just let the balls bang against each other for an hour. Then, check them, and consider using a .015" patch instead of the thicker .020" patch. Lube these patches at least the day before you use them, so that the lube has time to soak EVENLY through the fibers. I put my lube on one side, then put another patch on top of that, lube that second patch, then put the next patch on, etc. I make a stack of patches, with both the top and bottom being " dry " for handling purposes. Over night, the lube migrates through all the material, and the next day All the patches are lubed throughout, both sides.

If you for get to do this the day before, do it the morning before you go to the range, and then put them in the microwave oven. 5 Second bursts, until you see the grease coming through those dry end patches. Put them in wax paper( to be PC) or in a plastic wrap or baggies, and then in your range box, or hunting bag. :thumbsup:
 
Unfortunately I do not have either. These actually have a ridge around them, kind of like a ring around a planet. May be from the mold? So are the variations in size pretty common? They say on the box uniform in size, weight and concentricity. I bought some more and meausured them, did not have the visible ring. They really don't vary more than .002 max over. These go in much easier, but will grab some thinner patches.

Meausured my other balls, .440, .490, .495, and .451 and all seem pretty consistant. Maybe just got a bad batch. I've shot hundreds of balls and this is my first problem like this, I am sure I just need more experience though.

I have been just using Thompson bore butter natural lube 1000. Would you reccomend a better or cleaner lube? I clean between shots.... now and seems very dirty. Would a different lube help?

Thanks again Paul!
 
Hornady Balls are not cast lead. The Hornady round balls are swaged. I have never seen rings on this type of ball. I would contact Hornady as this is some sort of a quality problem.

I see you are in Az. very dry air. I shoot in Az. every year. In a dry climate Bore Butter has worked very poorly as it hardens in the bore very fast. The bore will get a hard film that is hard to remove and makes loading very difficult. I have found the Hoppes #9 Black powder Plus to be the best lube in my rifles. I would use a some what wet patch to keep the bore clean and slide the ball down. Bore Butter works in areas where the air is moist, not in the desert. The .020 patch in your rifle is most likely too thick. The .010 is too thin, try a.015. I would check out Walmart get some .O15 pillow ticking. You will have to take a caliper in the store and measure the bolts of cloth. :thumbsup:
 
You can get a casting seem when the person casting the ball does not hold the mold halves closed, tightly. Those balls should be rejected, and thrown back in the pot to remelt. Always look at the two halves to make sure there is no casting debris that will prevent the mold from closing fully.

If you know any reloader who loads cast bullets, he will probably have either a case tumbler, or a case vibrator. They are not too expensive, and if you are going to cast your own balls, you should buy your own. Look at used equipment sales at gun shows, pawn shops, and gun shops. As long as the motors work, these things are usually indestructible.

As to variations in size/weight, it really depends on who casts the balls as well as what lead they use. I like to keep my cast balls, and swaged balls to within 1 grain in weight, for target work( .50 caliber), and within .001" in diameter for size. This again is for target shooting. For off-hand shooting, and plinking, I use just about anything that fits the barrel. Most of that kind of shooting is done at pretty short ranges, at small targets, but the weight or size of the ball is not going to cause many misses at 25 yds. or less.

Some shooters use a 1% " rule", altho I don't know where they got that "rule". That is, they want the cast balls to weigh within 1% of the mean weight of the balls, for target shooting.

I have some wonderlube, but have not yet finished my old bottle of Young country Lube 101, a predeceasor to your Natural Lube 1000. Mine is not smelly like some of the later lubes are.

I find the old lube works great. I don't understand what you mean by "dirty", because I have used Hoppe's #9 Black Powder solvent and Patch lube, spit( don't have to pay the Arabs), water, crisco, and a variety of liquid lubes, and I don't find any of them to have any effect on how " dirty " the gun is. The dirt relates to the BP residue.

I find that if I use a OP wad made of Vegetable Fibers( Walter's Veg. Fiber Wads), that are 1/8" thick, between the powder and my PRB, the powder charge burns more completely and I get less residue. This is true with Goex FFg, and Goex FFFg, as Well as Swiss FFFg powder. If getting less residue means being less " dirty", then that is how you get there.

The less residue occurs because the OP wad delays the movement of the PRB a few milliseconds, causing the pressure in the barrel to rise, and the temperature to also rise. That causes the granules of powder to be burned more completely, leaving behind less unburned soot and chemicals. If you have ever watched wood burn, and then used a tube to blow air on the fire to give it more oxygen, you understand how raising the temperature makes the fuel burn more completely. Compressing any gas will cause its temperature to rise. That is the principle for a compression fire starter to ignite a burning ember out of tinder inside the cylinder.

The other thing I have done that reduces the amount of debris and residue in my MLer is to screen the powder to get uniformly sized granules. The more uniform the fuel is, the more likely it will all burn completely, from what I have experienced.

I clean between shots, and the cleaning patch always comes out black and shiney, from the moisture and "greasy " residue that is in the barrel. I make a habit of feeling that grease, by first folding the patch between my thumb and forefinger, and rubbing the two halves together. If there is grit in the residue, I can feel it doing this. If I don't, I will often get my fingers dirty by feeling the wet looking residue on the patch with my fingers. They can tell me better just how wet the residue is. On very damp hot summer days, for example, I now expect to have to run Two dampened cleaning patches down the barrel, followed by a dry patch to dry the barrel, to get it clean for the next shot. Experience, and notes, or a good memory, will teach you what you have to do in any given weather conditions. Just remember that what you do to clean will change with the weather, and that there is NO ONE way to clean these guns that works in all parts of the country, in every weather condition.

You can't memorize your way to a clean functioning barrel. Learn instead how to test the gun and components to know when you need to change what you usually do to clean the barrel. Too many beginners want a set group of rules, they can memorize, and use on their guns in all conditions. That just is not how BP works. Sorry, guys. :surrender: :hatsoff:

I keep rags or towels handy to wipe the residue off my dirty fingers. A Jug of water is always in my car's trunk or the back of my truck with a very small bottle of liquid dish soap, to wash my hands, to keep them clean during a match, or shooting session. I offer the use of the soap and water to the guys at my club, when they have forgotten theirs. They appreciate it even more than a cold drink at the end of a shoot. :thumbsup:
 
The cost of RB's is pretty high these days and that kind of variation is unacceptable. Remember these are the same folks that also make bullets for modern cartridges. Images a 357 bullet that varies from .357 to .363? I'd call the manufacturer.
 
Ya know I might get flamed for this,,but that's why I started casting my own. Those Hornady ball are just plain junk! They just can't seem to keep them in reasonable tolerance, different lot #'s of the same size ball can weigh as much as 15grns different. Try rolling one across a counter top or flat table surface once,,
Speer makes a more consistant ball for over the counter.
Plenty of folks buy and use the Hornady,,but if they are the only thing I can get,,I'll pass. Shooting them in compitition is a waste of powder.
 
Well, I weighed 35 balls from a box of Hornady .530 balls in preparation for shooting the Dutch Schoultz series and got some very unsatisfactory results. I then weighed 35 balls from a box of Speer 0.535 balls to see if they were better:

Hornady - max 226.4 gr, min 222.5 gr, total variation between max and min 3.9 gr, standard deviation 1.0 gr.

Speer - max 230.6 gr, min 229.0 gr, total variation between max and min 1.6 gr, standard deviation 0.4 gr.

The variation in Hornady balls was 2.5 times greater than the Speer balls. Using the Schoultz recommendation of shooting balls that weigh within 1 gr of the max only 11 of 35 (just 31%!) Hornady balls qualify, while 24 of 35 (68%) Speer balls qualify.

Those results are remarkable; on the basis of this one test, the Hornady balls are significantly lower in quality than the Speer balls. However, I intend to check another box of each brand; it's hard to believe such a popular brand would be so poor in comparison to it's main competitor.
 
Yup.
This is something that has always made me wonder.

Years ago someone mentioned that there was a lot of variation in the swaged balls from Hornady.

Having some swaged balls from Hornady and some from Speer I weighed them and found the same thing that you found. LOTS of weight variation with both brands.
Size didn't seem to be a problem with either brand.

I was so surprised that I got out several boxes of those modern projectiles made by the same folks and as I expected, the bullets in each caliber weighed within less than one tenth of a grain of one another.


The swaging process takes a lead wire and cuts it and forms it into a ball under extremely high pressure. It should make all of the balls exactly the same. The weight and size variation should not be worse than the bullets made by the same company.

Learning all of this made me appreciate my own skills with casting my own balls as they weigh within a few tenths of a grain of each other.
 
And yours are cheaper too. you would think with what they charge for roundballs, and with the reputation that they both have, they would have better quality :shake:
 
Of course some of the problems will not be just from dia. differences, but also weight differences. I have a large batch of cast balls here that do measure in dia. pretty consistent. Then I decided to weigh them. There was as much as 4gr. differences. So, a few of the light balls were placed in a vice and a sharp chisel was used to split them in half. A void was found. No it is not big, but it sure hurts consistency. The void not only affects the weight, but if the void is not in the very true center of the ball, it has to make the ball do weird things as it is spinning toward it's target. You could think of this as a tire that is not balanced, it will want to not fly true.
 
ayup- that's a bad batch, and you have every right (as well as an implied obligation) to raise a fuss.

some years ago, the bagpipe community was beset by elkhide bags which had 'el- cheapo' stitching. we just adamantly refused to buy them and (to nobody's surprise) manufacturers got the hint: folks don't buy manure, so don't bother to make it.

you may want to consider casting your own... you can get a lead melter and a decent mold for not very much, and then you're not at the mercy of some corporate wonk (or some government wonk, either, but that's a tirade for another day).

just my two cents worth...
 
Very close to my results. And I did it for the same reason, Dutch S.
I found I could get 85-90 in tolerance with a box of Speer, dismal results with Hornady 55-60. That's alot of money spent for ball that's only good for plinking.
When my local source for speer dried up (sportmens warehouse closed their doors :( )
I got seriuos about casting, and glad I did.
I'll second Zonie in that both makers modern bullets have fine quality and performance, but for some reason when it comes to casting 100% lead they sure "dropped the ball". I'm not even sure if they are USA made?
 
I cast bullets for 45 Colt (Peacemaker) but I haven't started casting balls for a muzzle loader. One reason is that I use wheel weights which are ok for the Colt Revolver but I'm not sure how to get pure lead from wheel weights so I have held off. Lucky for me, I started with Speer and never knew Hornaday was that different.
Question- do you get better results by casting your own? As to diameter, weight, etc? What are some good molds? Lee sells a mold for about $20, is it any good?
 
It takes a few casting sessions ta get it down, the rythme and temps an stuff ( I got advise here) and I guess I still toss back 20% of a run, I find if I cast 120 or so I'll keep a 100 that are within .5grns of each other and are the same each time I cast. So yes, I think I get a better more consistant ball.
The only issue is now I have to load sprue up, but that's not a problem. What gets tossed is remelted, all I'm out is time.

I think Lyman blocks are the best their steel not aluminum, but Lee's work good too as far as quality, their just a little more fussy with temps and proper lock up.
It's defenatly a cost issue. If yer gonna cast for the long hall go with Lyman, if yer just starting or wanna try it, Try a Lee with out fear of a bad investment, you can always sell or trade for an upgrade.
For ball out of a rifle 100% lead is the only way too go.
 
Just opened a box of .530 Hornadays, weighed and entered on excel.

Min wt 223.4 (-.537%)
Max wt 225.6 (+.412%)
Average 224.6
Calculated 224.0

If I threw out everything >1.0 gr out from calculated wt it would be 2 that were 1.2 gr under the calculated wt.

Compared to a 93 gr .395 ball all would be less than .5 gr diff than 93 gr.

More study required.

TC
 
While having each and every ball weigh the same may give some small advantage IMO for most target shooting and for all hunting it really makes little difference to accuracy.

Ball size, patch thickness, powder load and even the pressure each shot is compressed with probably has much more to do with having a consistent accuracy.

Experiments using cast balls with small voids in them in, loaded with these voids at different positions (spru forward, aft, to the side up, to the side down etc.) also doesn't affect accuracy much.

As I said, those folks who are looking for anything that could cause a 1/16 inch error at 100 yards on their target when the trophy is on the line do care about 0.1 grains of variation but for most of us (myself included) we would never know the difference.
 
When shooting in big matches years ago I took out all the variables that I could - main thing was to build confidence.

As I continued in competition, I found I still won off hand matches using unweighed Hornaday .395s and .495s.

If I started sit down shooting, would again get into weighing projectiles, pre weighing powder charges on scales, etc.

I got pretty good at casting but never liked it. Will keep my equipment but shoot swaged balls when I can.

BUT, when working on a load even for a hunting rifle, I feel obligated to get it shooting as well as possible. Never know when that once in a life time buck is situated behind something requiring a shot thru a small opening.

We used to hunt squirrels with flinters and 22s. Only head shots were counted when back at camp to see who had bragging rights for the day.

TC
 

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