Ball weight.

[PowderMonkey]

I was reading Dutch Schultz writings on accuracy and he talked about the discrepancies in weight of the balls you buy commercially. So since i am working on that system i decide to weigh the one i have.

I have a 50cal so i bought one box of .495 and one of .490. I weighed the box of .490 and only found a few that were not within 1 grain. Then i weighed the box of .495, holy manure! They were all over the place.

I had already shot some before i decided to weigh them so i don't have a sample of a full box but close enough (84),

180gr range=8
181gr range=34
182gr range=19
183gr range-12
184gr range=10
190gr range=1

That is a spread of 10 grains, seems to me that is too much of a variance. Is this normal for commercial balls?

What should a 50cal .495 ball weigh (ideally).

 

[necchi]

Yes, that kind of spread is unfortunately pretty normal.
It was that disparage that helped guide me to casting my own.
I have one regret about casting though.
I didn't start earlier!! :wink:

 

[Maven]

Cast of pure Pb, a .495" RB should weigh 183gr. Take a look at this calculator, which is very useful and user friendly: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/roundball.htm?v1=.495&v2=2876.1

 

[PowderMonkey]

Necchi, yes i agree with you, i will most likely start to cast myself also in the near future. This type of weight discrepancy is really too wide to be consistent.


Maven, thank you for the info and i will check out that link.

 

[galamb]

I would be interested to see how they shoot.

I would take 2 each from the 180 to 184 grain balls, 10 in all, and bench shoot them (to remove as much of the human factor from the aim point as possible).

If you are looking for 1 hole accuracy then maybe that 4 grain spread might be "too far", but if you were just "hunting them", are we talking 1" group, 2", 6"????

 

[AZbpBurner]

I get some weight variations with the balls I cast, but not as great of a range as the commercial ball weights. Separate your balls by weight. Balls within a sorted weight range will group better than random weight balls, and that is one of the easiest ways to tighten up your groups.

 

[PowderMonkey]

I would be interested to see how they shoot.

I would take 2 each from the 180 to 184 grain balls, 10 in all, and bench shoot them (to remove as much of the human factor from the aim point as possible).

If you are looking for 1 hole accuracy then maybe that 4 grain spread might be "too far", but if you were just "hunting them", are we talking 1" group, 2", 6"????

This for target only not hunting so i would like to get the group as small as i can.

 

[PowderMonkey]

I get some weight variations with the balls I cast, but not as great of a range as the commercial ball weights. Separate your balls by weight. Balls within a sorted weight range will group better than random weight balls, and that is one of the easiest ways to tighten up your groups.

That is what i did, I sorted them out so they are within 1 grain and will try the 181.1-182.1, that is the weight where most of the the balls weighed in.

may try the others at some time to see how they do but i think the solution will be to cast my own. Who knows what the next box may be like.

 

[Dr5x]

Powder MOnkey.
Your experience in weighing out the 100 lead balls is better than most.
From all reports I have received over the past several years the Hornady Balls will range as many as 23 out of a hundred as being outside the one grain limit.

Billinpatti's report of the remarkable consistency in weight of the smaller balls caused me some puzzlement. It occurred to me that all the caliber sizes he checked were in the range of balls created by spraying melted lead from ascot tower.
Out of curiosity I googled Hornady to find if they had or used a shot tower and guess what. They seem to have one.
Whether their smaller caliber balls come from the shot tower I have no idea, just a strong suspicion.
Hornady larger caliber balls are OK if you weigh them out and eliminate the light weights.
Sell your light weight balls to folks who don't believe in weighing out lead balls.
Dutch

 

[Billnpatti]

Darn, I went through all of the calculations given the the density of lead is 11.34 grams per cubic centemeter and there are 16.39 cubic centemeters in one cubic inch. Then the volume of a sphere with a diameter of .495 is 4/3 Pi times the radius cubed. Anyway, I calculated that a 0.495 round ball made of pure lead should weigh 181.5 grains. Lo and behold, Maven clicked a button and came up with 183 grains for a .495 round ball. Just goes to show that in many ways the youngens are the smart ones and us old farts have to do it the old way. :idunno: Yeah, I have to get my grandkids to show me how to work my smart phone. Now, where did I leave my slide rule? :hmm:

 

[PowderMonkey]

Powder MOnkey.
Your experience in weighing out the 100 lead balls is better than most.
From all reports I have received over the past several years the Hornady Balls will range as many as 23 out of a hundred as being outside the one grain limit.

Billinpatti's report of the remarkable consistency in weight of the smaller balls caused me some puzzlement. It occurred to me that all the caliber sizes he checked were in the range of balls created by spraying melted lead from ascot tower.
Out of curiosity I googled Hornady to find if they had or used a shot tower and guess what. They seem to have one.
Whether their smaller caliber balls come from the shot tower I have no idea, just a strong suspicion.
Hornady larger caliber balls are OK if you weigh them out and eliminate the light weights.
Sell your light weight balls to folks who don't believe in weighing out lead balls.
Dutch

Hi Dutch, thanks for the response. Working on your system and getting things i need. Going to through the process this is just one of the things i need to change so i will probably melt the ones that are out of spec and use the lead for casting.

I'm in the process of researching what i need to get started casting so i think i have bought my last box of commercial round balls.

I find it weird that Hornady, a great component company as i have used them for my center fire rifles and handguns and also when i used to shoot IHMSA and never had an issue with their bullets. I guess they don't take the care with round balls as they do with their other bullets.

 

[mooman76]

They are production company and need to make a profit like everyone else or go down the tubes. They can afford to take the time we can to make sure their quality is tight as we want. Truth is allot of people out there don't really care..

 

[Col. Batguano]

I guess this begs asking a more basic question;

Does a ML'er possess the same potential for intrinsic accuracy as a centerfire gun? The better bolt action hunting type centerfire guns all seem capable of 1 MOA shooting at 100 yards. The bench rest guys are far tighter than that. I've yet to see a 1" / 100 yard group posted here out of a ML'er. Are they even capable of it?

 

[PowderMonkey]

I guess that is true, i was just surprised at the level of tolerance of their product.

 

[necchi]

Does a ML'er possess the same potential for intrinsic accuracy as a centerfire gun?

Of course not, but the idea is to eliminate the possible variables of inaccuracy. The more we can reduce the mechanical variables of the gun as a tool,, the more we can focus on the true aspect of real accuracy.
The nut behind the butt.

That "intrinsic accuracy of center fire" is why many of us are in this hobby, the entire thing about trad ml brings the sport back into the shooting,,
Like you say, any CF can shoot 1moa, yet surprisingly many CF shooters can't. Put a trad ml in their hands,,, now let them try to find accuracy :haha:
That's when terms like "plinking" and "pie plate" start being used. :wink:

 

[Billnpatti]

Yep, many shooters of muzzleloaders are satisfied with "minute of pie plate" while others are interested in seeing just how accurate they can make their rifle. :hmm: Some folks use Dutch's accuracy system or someting similar to wring the last bit of accuracy out of their rifle while others are quite satisfied with just "pour in some powder, ram home a ball and pull the trigger" If they make smoke and noise and can hit a pie plate at 50 yards, they are happy as a box of birds. It's all in what makes you happy and what blows your skirt up.

 

[PowderMonkey]

Yep, many shooters of muzzleloaders are satisfied with "minute of pie plate" while others are interested in seeing just how accurate they can make their rifle. :hmm: Some folks use Dutch's accuracy system or someting similar to wring the last bit of accuracy out of their rifle while others are quite satisfied with just "pour in some powder, ram home a ball and pull the trigger" If they make smoke and noise and can hit a pie plate at 50 yards, they are happy as a box of birds. It's all in what makes you happy and what blows your skirt up.

Agree with you there. If a guy is happy with pie plate accuracy and they enjoy it and have a great time, nothing wrong with that.

For me one of the reasons i got into black powder is the challange it brings to get the most accuracy out of your system. The process of learning all these little things that make a difference is challanging but also rewarding.

I enjoy the slow process and relaxing pace of traditional black powder and the attention to detail to be accurate. No, i'm not there yet, i can't group my shots in a cluster like i can with my centerfire but i'm getting closer every time i go out because of the things i learn here.

So the challange, attention to detail, and charm of traditional black powder is very rewarding to me. It has been a long time since i have felt that way about shooting.

So enjoy it in whatever level of accuracy you are happy with.

 

[mooman76]

As long as I am hitting what I aim at, I'm happy.

 

[hanshi]

:thumbsup: +1

 

[galamb]

:thumbsup: +1

+2

And in the time it took some of these guys to horse around with their balls on scales, I shot all those "errant" balls :rotf: