Balls cast from wheel weights ?

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Robin Camp

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All of the distractors that I have read about shooting round balls out of muzzleloaders, at large deer or elk, state that the main problem is a lack of penetration because of rapid expansion, because the balls are cast, or swaged out of pure lead. Has anyone tried casting balls out of a harder compound like wheel weights or lynotype? I believe that , if the balls are cast .10 under boar diameter, and appropriate patch material is used, the patch will fill the grooves sufficiently to impart a proper spin on the ball. Eagerly awainting replys from fellow BP Bothers in arms.....Robin
 
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I don`t know much about wheel weights. But I use pure soft lead and have taken a few deer with my 50cal. and have never had a problem with penetration. you might want to do your own tests, but as for me it`s pure soft lead
 
i cast all my practice shooting RB's from WW's. the reason is economy as i have a few lifetimes supply of WW. the bigger bores like my .58, .66, and .72 shoot them almost as well as pure lead. i have also used WW for my Whitworth bullets. i recently aquired a couple 100 lbs. of old lead pipe for free and have tried mixing WW with the pure lead pipe 50/50. this has worked very well as the RB's and bullets are soft enough to load fairly easily and accuracy is comparable to pure lead. but yes WW can be used with reduced diameter RB's and more patch with success.
 
All of the distractors that I have read about shooting round balls out of muzzleloaders, at large deer or elk, state that the main problem is a lack of penetration because of rapid expansion, because the balls are cast, or swaged out of pure lead.

I'm not so sure very many people on this forum would agree with those detractors. Shot placement could be the issue. Balls belong in the heart/lung area.
 
If you are hunting Elk size game( caribou, Moose, etc.) and using at least a .54 caliber rifle, you should have no problem shooting pure lead balls, and having them penetrate the chest area of the animal for a heart/lung killing shot.

The idea that pure lead balls EXPAND TOO fast, is just silly. These big balls are heavy enough to break bones going in and coming out. Yes, if you hit bone, the ball will expand. But it will stay together and continue to penetrate the Elk.

I recommend you solve this question to your own satisfaction by doing penetration test. Years ago, to satisfy myself about my new .50 caliber gun, I set up a box made of 1" pine boards, spaced 1" apart. I fired several BP loads, as well as some bullets from modern smokeless powder rifles that I knew had the penetration to kill game very dad. Both my target load and my heavy hunting load penetrated 6 boards and smacked into the 7th. I would expect any .54 caliber lead RB to penetrate at least 7 and probably 8 boards in a similar test.

That is more than enough power and performance to kill and Elk that walks this continent. If you are Lucky, your ball will be found under the skin on the far side. In most cases the ball complete penetrates both sides of the animal, and is lost in the field.

If you cast the balls from Wheel Weights, the balls will way less than the pure lead balls, but will be slightly larger in Diameter, and may require that you use a slightly thinner patch material. The WW balls almost never expand, and just punch a hole through both sides of the animal. Use them, if that is what is going to make you comfortable. The pure Lead Ball has put down hundreds of thousands of Elk and other big game for a couple of centuries, but if that history of performance is NOT good enough to convince you that a pure lead ball will kill your Elk, use something else.

New shooters to BP shooting seem to have a constant problem with accepting the fact that a pure lead Round Ball is the perfect projectile for hunting thin skinned big game. It does expand, produces a sizeable primary wound channel, which gets bigger as the ball expands, and kills by shocking the animal, or reducing its blood pressure rapidly because of internal bleeding( hemorrhaging.)

You don't need to shoot harder balls, or conicals to kill game within the normal limits of these rifles, using open sights. I know skilled BP shooters who have killed deer at well over 150 yards with a pure lead round ball, because they knew where the gun shot, and were able to accurately put a ball into the deer at that longer range. Accuracy, and correct practice, is more more important to successfully killing game, than the composition of the lead ball you shoot at it.
 
"Quote"....I recommend you solve this question to your own satisfaction by doing penetration test. Years ago, to satisfy myself about my new .50 caliber gun, I set up a box made of 1" pine boards, spaced 1" apart. I fired several BP loads, as well as some bullets from modern smokeless powder rifles that I knew had the penetration to kill game very dad. Both my target load and my heavy hunting load penetrated 6 boards and smacked into the 7th. I would expect any .54 caliber lead RB to penetrate at least 7 and probably 8 boards in a similar test.

Paul, at what distance did you do the penetration test? Brad
 
I was just testing various powder charges and RB loads. I set my box up at about 25 feet. But, after that, we moved it back to 50 yards and fired a couple of shots. Shooting had to be curtailed because the boards began disintegrating! I had expected to get more out of them, and didn't buy extra lumber.

These are Comparison tests. The distance to the box is not particularly relevant unless you are testing to find out how well a particular projectile is going to penetrate 1 inch boards spaced 1" apart! :shocked2: I don't think I have any reason to hunt such lumber. :rotf:

Because of different BCs for balls and bullets, you have to accept that limitation on the range you can use RBs for hunting game. Add the limitation of open sights, take into consideration the diameter and weight of the ball being used, and you find testing at 25 or 300 feet to deliver pretty similar results with lead RBs.

Seriously, Even ballistic's Gel-- now available to private persons but costs a lot, and you have to mix and cast your own "blocks"--- doesn't exactly duplicate the performance of any projectile striking flesh AND BONE, particularly when the density of bone can vary so much. I have a very good friend who has been testing bullets, and balls for more than 50 years, who now just shoots them into sand bags. He has shot lead into so many other mediums, over the years, that he can look at a slug's or ball's performance in sand and a very good idea about what it will do in flesh and bone. He has several boxes of spent bullets, both taken from dead deer and other game, as well as similar projectiles fired into sandbags. When he sets them side by side, you begin to understand that ball or bullet expansion has more to do with the composition of the projectile, and its weight, than to velocity. Only when you have a projectile slowing down to near terminal velocity does the deformation begin to lessen noticeably.

I have test fired bullets and balls into wood, water, dry-wall(gypsum board) sand, ballistic gel, newspapers( dry and wet) solid wood, tree stumps that were green, RR ties, and dirt. I probably have forgotten some of the things I have tested projectiles in, but this is as good a list as my brain can managed today. Projectiles have ranged from the .36 revolver RB, to the .22 short, to the .50-140-550 Sharps cartridge.

For purposes of your interest in the effectiveness of a projectile to kill ELK, I fired a Remington Core-Lok 180 grain Jacketed Soft Point .30-06 round into that same Pine plank box, as a " Standard " to use in judging the .50 cal. RB loads. Where the .50 cal. RB( 177 grains in weight) went through 6 boards and smacked into the 7th, the .30-06, 180 grain bullet penetrated 8 boards. The 180 grain, .30-06 ammo has long been accepted as perfectly adequate for killing ELK. Since my .50 cal. rifle is for shooting RB only, and I have no expectation of hunting ELK here in Illinois, I was only concerned with its performance on deer.

The first deer I shot was about 40 yards, broadsides, with the ball breaking a rib going in the right side, behind the "elbow", piercing the back of both lungs, and some of the major arteries above the heart, before breaking a second rib exiting the 3 1/2 year old Doe. The second rib had a noticeably larger hole through it than the first broken rib, and the wound channel expanded as the ball passed through each of the lungs, with the hole in the Left lung almost 3/4" in diameter.

At that range, I was expecting the ball to pass completely through the deer, and it did. Its performance mimicked the channel I saw through the boards in my penetration tests. I took the time to autopsy the deer when field dressing her, just to find out how close to reality my test " medium " was for this pure lead RB. When I returned home, I called my friend, Ray, who had done the testing with me, and shared the information with him, and then called Jim, the fellow who tests in sandbags these days, and shared the information with him. He told me he was not surprised at the results from either the boards, or in shooting the doe, as he had seen similar results over the years in his own testing, and hunting. Jim is a Korean War vet, and about 17 years older than me. He worked as a Deputy Sheriff part time for about 30 years, and began investigating lead bullets, and alloys, of all kinds for bullets, for police use. He ended up designing his own shotgun slug for use in stopping cars that were approaching road blocks. His slug hold up to metal targets, and gets through to those engine block far better than anything now in use. He was never able to find anyone interested in using his slugs for police purposes, so he has hunted with them now for about 45-50 years. His slug is so accurate that he used to win $20 bets by standing off at 100 yards, and putting 5 of his slugs through the challenger's baseball cap from his Remington 1100 shotgun, using standard trap type sights on the barrel, and NO rear sight. I heard about that first from another shooter who had lost $20.00 and showed me his " trophy " hat with 5 12 ga. holes through it, before I asked Jim about it. According to the other shooter, he had never heard of anyone winning that bet with Jim, and Jim told me he had never lost such a bet with anyone.

Jim has literally fired thousands of bullets, slugs, and balls into test media, over his life time, and I frankly don't know anyone living who knows more about bullet performance than Jim. When some manufacturer puts out a "New " bullet, Jim seems to always have a box of the ammo in some caliber that he has a rifle or shotgun to shoot, and is testing it almost before I hear about the " new " slug. The closest I have come is one time when he said to me over the phone," Yeah, I know about it, I just tested some of them Yesterday!" Then he proceeds to tell you what existing bullet or slug expands or reacts the same as the " new " one.

Sorry I wandered a bit, but I have been enriched in my life by meeting and knowing some truly talented and learned friends, who have been kind enough to sit down and answer stupid questions from a Country Lawyer. MY personal testing began as a kid, with my father firing the guns, and my brother and me digging the slugs out of dirt, or tree stumps. I have been digging spent balls and bullets out of various backstops for the past 50 years.
 
While ever rifle is a rule unto itself, I think it safe to say you won't get the best accuracy with hard lead balls, but perhaps good enough. No doubt a hard ball will penetrate more, the question is if more is needed.
I took a cow elk at near 100 yards with a Hornady .490 ball and got full penetration and exit of the chest. However, the exit was not a round hole but a slit about three times as long as wide. It appeared the ball had flattened on entrance, hit a rib off center and tipped edgewise to exit.
I also took a muley doe at about fifty yards facing straight on with a .490 Hornady from the wife's little 24" .50 caliber using only 50 grains 3f to keep recoil acceptable for her from the 5 1/2 pound rifle. The ball centered the chest at the base of the throat and I found it in the left ham. It penetrated nearly the full length of the deer but hit no bones. Except for some light scratches and rifleing marks it looked like a new ball. The deer just stood for a couple of seconds, toppled over sideways and was DRT (dead right there).
Many smoothbore shooters prefer a hard ball on the theory that it will remain round and fly true whereas a soft ball may be flattened a bit by the force of acceleration up the bore. I once took a "Texas heart shot" on a muley buck at about fifty yards with a .648" linotype ball over 3 1/4 drams (88 grains) of 2f from a 12 gauge shotgun. The ball cut off the tail bone, pulverized the spine for about a foot, then slid along side the spine and came to rest about half way up the length of the spine. I had to finish him with a pistol but he was anchored there. That hard ball penetrated and pulverized about a foot of bone and again, except for a few deep scratches, it looked like it could be loaded and fired again.
 
Now you have got me curious as to whether a pure lead ball or a ww cast ball will get the job done and if they both will what difference does it make which you use?
I am asking because I was able to get a good deal on ww lead and use it for my centerfires and my muzzleloaders and haven't seen much difference in my muzzleloaders am I missing something.
I am not using ww lead because I think it is better but because it was what I could get.
thanks for the answers.
I can leave a mark with my finger nail in my ww lead if that helps.
 
Let me preface my reply by stating that I am a traditional black powder hunter, and shooter. I am a certified black powder instructor through the NRA and the Florida Wildlife Commission, and I am a hunter safety instructor for the state of Florida. I, personally, have never cast any RB'S out of anything but pure lead. I recently read several articles from persons, alleging to have had bad experiences using RB'S on deer and elk. All stated that it took multiple shots to put their target down. Of course, I have no knowledge of where they had placed the shots. Their general opinion was that RB's had inadiquait penetration to ensure a quick and humaine kill. Therefore, I asked whether, or not, anyone had tried casting balls out of harder metal, for better penetration, and what the results were.....Robin
 
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From personal experience, a pure lead .600 roundball with 70 grains of 3F out of a smoothbore drops a whitetail deer in its tracks.
 
The Prophet said:
I recently read several articles from persons, alleging to have had bad experiences using RB'S on deer and elk. All stated that it took multiple shots to put their target down.
All horse hockey...that's exactly the kind of mis-information that's being spread around by toby bridges.
Every deer I've ever shot with a PRB was a one shot kill and I think that's been the case with most PRB hunters.
 
I asked whether, or not, anyone had tried casting balls out of harder metal

Caliber, range, placement and angle of shot would be better questions. If a RB ain't getting thru a deer it ain't the RB's that's the problem. Then again, if they didn't state those things in the article(s) in question......
 
Another perpetuation of the falicy that since the technology is old, then it must not work. I can see it now...a longhunter in 1790 running after a deer he just shot while reloading because of his crap technology.

Yeah, my experience is the opposite. A big lead ball is a big lead ball. It's going to kill and do it quickly.
 

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