Banking powder a myth?

[ebiggs1]

Always bank your powder away from the touchhole!
Don’t want to make the “old timers” upset but this is what I have found.
I used the two sons to do a blind test where I loaded the guns and they shot them without knowing how I loaded them. I tried putting powder in different locations in the pan because I have been told that the fastest ignition is to bank away from the touchhole. However, that is not what I have seen in my little experiment with the highly accurate “human feels like” meter. Both boys preferred powder either against the touchhole or level in the pan. Actually if you are hunting and walking any little bit the powder seems to level itself anyway. What say you?

 

[Stophel]

Dump it in, snap it shut, cock and shoot.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Depends on where your touch hole is positioned. If it is in the right place it doesn't matter where the powder is in the pan.

 

[Strawstalker/NM]

I always try to level my pan powder out. I feel this is best as a spark landing anywhere in the fully covered pan will ignite the priming charge. Once the full priming charge ignites - percentages are the main charge will soon follow - if your touchhole is open and in the correct location. Your mileage may vary. Strawstalker, CO Territory

 

[Trot]

Dump it in, snap it shut, cock and shoot.

Yup, if it gets to where I have to worry how the powder is positioned I'm gonna give up shooting!

 

[Jason Lewis]

pletch did some timeing experiments with this, i believe the fastest time was with powder against the vent.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Dump it in, snap it shut, cock and shoot.

:thumbsup:

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Always bank your powder away from the touchhole!
Don’t want to make the “old timers” upset but this is what I have found.
I used the two sons to do a blind test where I loaded the guns and they shot them without knowing how I loaded them. I tried putting powder in different locations in the pan because I have been told that the fastest ignition is to bank away from the touchhole. However, that is not what I have seen in my little experiment with the highly accurate “human feels like” meter. Both boys preferred powder either against the touchhole or level in the pan. Actually if you are hunting and walking any little bit the powder seems to level itself anyway. What say you?

You missed my article in the April 2009 issue of MyzzleBlasts. This was the main topic I covered. I timed level prime, banked away, and against the barrel. I did this with three vent locations: level, high, and low. In all three I timed 20 trials and found the average. Here are the results:

---------banked away----level-----against barrel
Level vent: .043----------*---------.036
High vent:--.048--------.043--------.037
Low vent:---.046--------.037--------.038**

* I did not time level prime with the level vent. I don't remember why.

** In this position the prime covered the vent, but great pains were taken not to fill the vent

The powder used was Swiss Null B with each charge weighed. The prime was moved around in the pan with a round pencil eraser to place the prime as uniformly as possible. Since this test was pan ignition only, I was not concerned with barrel ignition. Outside of lab conditions I would prime by level filling of the pan, but would make sure that priming powder was against the barrel. If you don't get MuzzleBlasts, send me a PM and I'll provide a link.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[rabjr]

Dump it in, snap it shut, cock and shoot.

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

pletch did some timeing experiments with this, i believe the fastest time was with powder against the vent.

Although valid, often times, lab results don't matter too much in the field. Milliseconds won't make a perceptible difference in practice.

 

[Zonie]

I prefer to have the prime evenly spread across the bottom of the pan so that any spark that lights in it will be hitting the priming powder.
I should say here that this is when I'm target shooting.

My thanks to Pletch for reposting his findings.
I really think that most humans cannot tell the difference between the fast and slow flash speeds he found. After all, one tenth of a second is faster than the blink of an eye.

In other words, it doesn't make much difference as long as the vent hole IS NOT filled solid with powder.

I noticed that Pletch says he took "great pains were taken not to fill the vent"

Someday when he doesn't have much to do it might be interesting for him to intentionally fill the vent hole solid with powder and run his tests.
I would like to see just how long the WOOOOOOOOOOOSH takes before the main powder charge fires. :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Larry Pletcher did some testing and found that putting powder UNDER the TH produced the best ignition speed. However, if your TH is down flush with the bottom of the pan- he didn't have such an example--- Then you need to keep the powder from blocking the TH, one way or another.

Banking the powder away does NOT MEAN not having powder under the TH next to the barrel, in the pan. I think that is the misconception by some readers. I have a rifle with the TH in the "Setting sun" position re: the top line of the pan, and it fires fastest by filling the pan 1/2-2/3 full of powder, and than banking it back away from the TH so that there is more powder on the outside portion of the pan, than right under the pan, BUT, There is Powder in the pan the full length of the pan!

My fowler has the TH drilled .030" Above the line across the top edge of the pan. It fires fastest with the pan full.

So, the location of the TH plays a big part in how to load the pan for fastest ignition.

My pan in my fowler was also widened by my gunmaker, front to back, to give a Bigger " Target" for the sparks to hit. The bottom of the pan is polished to a fine finish, to make it easier to wipe the pan clean after the shot with a thumb and cleaning patch. The Smoother surface holds onto residue much less than a rough surface.After shooting my "As-Is" factory flash pan in my rifle for 20 years, I can highly recommend these changes my gunmaker made to the pan in my fowler. I simply never worry if the gun is going to fire, much less fire very fast.

When I fire the gun, I reach for a cleaning patch, which I wipe on my tongue, and then use to wipe down the face of the frizzen, and then wipe the flash pan of reside. Then the patch is flipped over and run down the barrel to remove damp residue there. That patch is then followed by a dry cleaning patch to dry the barrel before pouring the next powder charge. :thumbsup:

 

[ebiggs1]

I should have known you would have already tested this but it was fun.

 

[ebiggs1]

Yes!

 

[Many Klatch]

I prime out of the main horn. I pour in the powder and stop when it looks full. Sometimes it's mounded and I have to scrape some of it off. Sometimes I stop early and the pan is only half full. They all seem to go off like they are supposed to. I reckon that my reflexes are too slow to notice any difference.

Many Klatch

 

[ebiggs1]

pletch did some timeing experiments with this, i believe the fastest time was with powder against the vent.

Although valid, often times, lab results don't matter too much in the field. Milliseconds won't make a perceptible difference in practice.

I don't know if you can tell mili-seconds or not but if they couldn't, they were certainly lucky at guessing which seemed faster. I actually don't think it matters because I had them walk around the house and when we got back to the shooting spot, the powder was pretty much distributed evenly. Which, by the way, is my choice.
I have more things we tried but I'll post later on after I see if Mr. Pletch has already done that.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Larry Pletcher did some testing and found that putting powder UNDER the TH produced the best ignition speed. However, if your TH is down flush with the bottom of the pan- he didn't have such an example--- Then you need to keep the powder from blocking the TH, one way or another. . . . .
:thumbsup:

Paul see my ** note. With the vent in the low position, it was at the bottom of the vent, and .75 gr of prime did in fact cover the vent. As I point out, I tried not to fill the vent. That is a bit of a misnomer because the vent was only .030" thick - thanks to a WL liner.

As many of you mentioned, the human ear is a terrible tool for determining these small differences in time. My feeling is that if you can hear the difference, if was terribly slow. When I'm working on these tests I try to guess if a trial was slower or faster than the preceeding trial before looking at the computer. I'm invariably wrong.

Someone also mentioned liking level prime in real world because of wanting a big place for sparks to land. I agree; but make sure you have prime next to the barrel. Banking away is 17-30% slower, depending on which vent position you are talking about.

Larry Pletcher

 

[hthomso]

I have tried banking and not banking. I have never noticed any significant change in ignition time. I think it all depends upon the touch hole location and size.

 

[hanshi]

I don't concern myself much with powder position though I do tend to do a couple of things out of habit and without thinking about it. First, I prime toward the barrel portion of the pan. This is whether I use horn, springy thingy or a measure. Second, if I tip or cant the gun it is usually lock side down.

It would also seem to me that the farther the prime is from the vent, the more likely that the flash will be wasted away from the flash hole and flash out away from the gun. I don't see it so much as a quick flash problem but more of a way to be more certain you're getting more fire to the the main charge.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I don't concern myself much with powder position though I do tend to do a couple of things out of habit and without thinking about it. First, I prime toward the barrel portion of the pan. This is whether I use horn, springy thingy or a measure. Second, if I tip or cant the gun it is usually lock side down.

It would also seem to me that the farther the prime is from the vent, the more likely that the flash will be wasted away from the flash hole and flash out away from the gun. I don't see it so much as a quick flash problem but more of a way to be more certain you're getting more fire to the the main charge.

Hanshi,
I agree. I put it the other way around. The closer the prime is to the vent, the more fire enters the barrel. I took photos through the muzzle of a stub barrel that show this dramatically. With Claude's permission I'd post a link to the photos.
Regards,
Pletch