Barrel and lock placement - stock feel on hand

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I squared off the barrel channel on my TVA builders kit. The stock was rounded off on the breech end. I squared it off, figured where the flash hole should be, figured whre the lock will center on the hole, then added 5/16"s more length from the sear for the trigger. However, I feel like my trigger finger is reaching too far forwards in relation to where the stock feels good on my palm.

The stock wrist is well figured by TVM already. So, I can't tweek the wrist area by much.

The top of the stock is 1/2" higher than the top of the barrel, so I am having a hard time visualizing what it should look like already.

Is there a rule of thumb to the barrel placement I should keep in mind.
 
IMHO
Barrel hump= bend the tang down to match the curve of the wrist....then metal file beginning onto the barrel1/32" and smooth that hump down.....look at lancaster posted by fleto and others.

Trigger placement= 1/4" or so from sear means the trigger has to be there.....so if your LOP is too long.....butt needs to be cut....your looking for 13-1/2" to14-1/4" total.....

Wrist area= a long wrist is good, makes her look slimmer..... :thumbsup:

Marc n tomtom
 
fools sulphur said:
The stock wrist is well figured by TVM already. So, I can't tweek the wrist area by much.

The top of the stock is 1/2" higher than the top of the barrel, so I am having a hard time visualizing what it should look like already.

Is there a rule of thumb to the barrel placement I should keep in mind.

I haven't seen a TVM kit, but if it's at all like most kits, I'll bet there's a lot more wood to remove in the wrist than you may at first think. They are usually quite "fat."

If you are having a hard time visualizing. my advice is to stop until you review the style of gun you are trying to recreate, like Kaintuck suggested. Until you can visualize and then transfer that vision onto wood, you need to take some time to go back to your reference materials. Get to know the look you want. Don't be afraid to put pencil to that stock to draw and make reference lines and marks that guide you to the shape you need to achieve. Those will help you visualize and achieve.

There is a "rule of thumb" for the placement of many of the features on longrifles in relationship to one another. While not all masters followed it or they may have used the proportions from different reference points, the "Golden Mean Proportions" are a good guide. These are described in Susanne Warren-Bicio's "Longrifle Construction Manual." Also, the Gunsmith of Grenville County has detailed measurements of originals of several old masters for reference along with pictures.

Good luck!

Mike
 
You can forget the trigger for now. :idunno: You can't do it Correctly right now..... :shake:

Put the lock on the panel & see if the barrel is in the correct place for the vent liner.

If the lock Inlet is cut, You best inlet the lock FIRST about 75% of the way, then remove the breechplug & mark the end
of it on the outside of the barrel flat.

Lay the vent liner on the barrel 1/16" in front of the mark of the end of the breechplug. Now mark the Center of
the vent liner on the barrel flat.

Take the barrel into the stock & you want that Vent Liner CENTER to be in the center of the flashpan.

Every single Precarved stock I ever used, I had to move the barrel back to get it to align with the flashpan center.

Sometimes you have to Raise or Lower the breech of the barrel in the barrel inlet. Just depends on the pattern of the rifle,
barrel used, who cut the precarve, etc..

AFTER you get the barrel inlet, Tang shaped & Inlet, & the Barrel pinned in, THEN you are ready to do the trigger.

The Trigger goes where the lock accepts it to go.... period. :idunno: Thinking it will go here or there ? you are fooling yourself, unless you have built allot of these.

AFTER you get the trigger inlet, Rear of triggerplate anchored & Tang Screw down thru the front of the Triggerplate, THEN you measure for the LOP you want & cut the butt of the stock & inlet the Buttplate, then the Toeplate.

I am not saying you HAVE to do it this way.. But it may save you some major screwups, that could come up otherwise.... :wink:

Keith Lisle
 
You might be right with the wrist needing more material removed. IF the wrist is skinnier, the trigger might feel more at home right now.

I just feel like I need the barrel to go 3/8" back.

I did the preliminary line-up with where the barrel ends now. I can see it's hard to know where the trigger should be now.

I have not progressed because I want the gun to feel right and look not too unusual.

I do know these generic stocks are for different sized barrels, mine is a 13/16ths, so there is extra material than is needed.

With the siler locks, can you buy sears with a bit longer or shorter arms to them? I'm not planning to need it, but just out of curiosity.

Also, the barrel channel should be 1/2 flat high on the sides too? I think I read that in the grenville and Dixon's book as well. My rifle is 1/4's a flat exposed on the side and it's a straight barrel.
 
I spoke with TVM, they said it need to go 1/2" back, sometimes 5/8" from their roughed in stocks.

Erased all preliminary marks and penciled in where 1/2" back more would be, where the flash hole would line up, then the lock, the sear, and then the trigger. Feels great.

I also took the company's finished rifle photos and enlarged them to the point where it was actual size. They put everything back another 1/2 or so with relation to the nose of the comb as a central reference. The wood lock panel area looks to be tuned backwards a bit too.

IF I don't get it right the first time, there are always other builds.

Been doing a lot of handling between my lyman GPR, my best fitting iron sighted modern rifle, my best fitting shotgun, and this kit. Getting a feel of what I like a bit better.

Going to spend an afternoon with all three to feel what I like and don't a bit more.
 
I guess TVM should know their guns but I don't know how safe it is to just pick an arbitrary number out and say it's good.

If the stock has the lock mortice roughed in, do as Birddog6 suggested.
1. Inlay the lock (Using a pointed hobby knife) to cut along the outside of the lockplate and a chisel to remove the wood from the areas under the lockplate so that the lock is about 3/4 the way installed.

It's a good idea to use inletting black to see what other parts under the lockplate are hitting wood under it.

2. Find out where the breech plug face is either by doing as BD6 says or by dropping a cleaning rod down the barrel until it stops on the breech plug face. (Assuming this build is not using a snail breech and is using a normal flat faced breech plug and a vent hole thru the side of the barrel.)
Transfer the location of the breech plug face to the outside of the barrel.

3. Measure 1/4 of an inch forward of the breech plug face mark and make another mark.
This is where the vent liner will go.

Position the barrel so the vent liner mark is centered fore/aft with the center of the flintlock pan.

4. Make a mark on the top of the stock at the rear of the barrel.
That mark is the correct location for the rear of the barrel.
It might be the 1/2 inch your talking about but it might only be 1/4 of an inch.

This method doesn't rely on what someone else tells you.
It relies on what your existing parts tell you.
 
Until that rifle is shaped & together, there is no way to know how it fits. You are just fooling yourself. :shake:

Also, you have the horse ahead of the cart. You are supposed to find out what FITS you Before you pick the build. :idunno: as you can't make an apple out of a pig :idunno: it is preshaped. :slap: if it is a Blank, Yes. Precarve, No. You are extremely limited.

Between builds & buying rifles in the past 40+ years of muzzleloading, I always end back at the same style rifle. However I owned & sold about 60 before I found that style. :rotf: :rotf: That is why I always say "go someplace & shoulder about 20 dif. Styles of rifles & find one that fits you." A day or two trip can save you Thousands of $ in the future. :thumbsup:
You can fool yourself & convince yourself on allot of different ones. Been there, done that. But if you stay in this & are exposed to allot of rifles, once day you will pick one up & say " Holy Crap, this is what I have been missing!!"

Keith Lisle
 
I plan on going to the dixons muzzleloading fair this summer. Hopefully there are a few left handed guns I can check out. However, I do shoot RH as well, so I am a bit familiar how a gun fits on a north paw.

This is my build here. The barrel channel rails are about .1" too high. I need to remove the material to get the 1/2 way up the side flat of the barrel so I can properly locate the top of the pan.

My breech is .555" deep in the barrel. I put the lock at .75" as a visual reference here.

As looking from the top, The vertical surface where the barrel minus a tang inlet was ramped due to the router carver ending it's cut. So, I chiseled that vertical and square with the barrel channel inlet.

They have the advised lock panel, the flat surface surrounding the lock inlet. Do I center it there from TVM's drawing.

TVM has 2 built guns in their early Virginia pattern in excellent detail. When I zoom it to actual size on Microsoft paintm the vertical and horizontal dimentions match up just right with the size of the lock I have.

below are the pics of my kit so far.











So, what do I reference the lock to first? I do realize I need to lower the channel down a bit first.
 
Everyone does them different..... :idunno: But right now you can't assume the lock position, cause you have way too much wood
on the stock.

I'd knock all that wood off the top above the barrel & flatten it out. You know the wood can't stay Above the barrel (or tang)
so get rid of that on top. Then I would come down the wrist & work some of that down. Then you can drawn in the lock panel &
see what ya have.

I would also take out the barrel, go about 3" from the end of the breech in the bottom of the barrel channel & drill
a 1/8" hole from the barrel inlet into the RR hole & see how much Web I have between the barrel & the RR channel. Thus when
you redraw the lock panel, you can make ya a lil depth gauge with a piece of keystock, thumbscrew & SS wire with a hook on
the end of it, transfer the depth measurements to the outside of the lock panel & THEN see how things look on the lock panel.

Keith Lisle

PS: And take that Sear & screw off the lock, it has no bearing on Anything right now. Put ALL those lock parts in a tupperware
bowl with a lid on it. Tape the fly to the lid with scotch take so ya don't lose it.
 
I hope these help. This is from a rifle I'm building. It's a little different as it has a swamped barrel and the barrel was fully inlet with the parts set.
This worked out as I did not have to move the barrel back and I had enough room on the blank lock panel to tweak lock location.


The dark mark is the breech face, the lighter mark is for the vent location. Nothing is set in stone here. This was just a mock up to see if the barrel will work in it's location.

Note that the top of the wrist is just slightly above the top of the barrel with no excess wood.






You may not want to do this for yours but I revealed more of the side flat as the barrel meets the breech and shaped that area to match originals. The top edge of the side panel is going to be brought down to meet the top of the side flat. When looked at from the side the line of the top flat will continue as the top of the side panel. That will be for later as the side panel is shaped.
That was a feature of the original rifle. The finished rifle shown is not quite right and was for reference only.
 
I pushed the submit by mistake so sorry if unclear.

Here you can see how the rails of the barrel channel reveal more of the side flat as it approaches the breech. You do not have to that yours but it was a feature of the original rifle.


Long tail of lock gone in case you noticed it hung off the panel, better now for the 1810 rifle.

Since my barrel was far enough back and I have enough to move my lock forward some if need be I chose to set the barrel and inlet the tang. If anything the lock can move slightly forward.

Now if this was a stock with the lock inlet, the only adjustment you would have would be moving the barrel. I think Keith assumed that your rifle had the lock mortice started. In that case you would need to get the lock started and tweak the barrel back if need be as that is the only adjustment.
On my rifle the back was fine and could move the lock forward for liner clearance, I'm not using one but I made an allowance for it. The only thing is do not place the vent location so far forward that a dry ball will block the vent. No need to worry about triggers until the lock is set.
With that small barrel your mortice is going to be pretty deep. But that's a bridge to cross when you get there.

Lastly I hope I have helped and not confused the issue. Keep in mind Keith Birddog 6 is a pro so his advice trumps mine.

If you do need to bring the barrel back and when you inlet it, inlet it straight down. Same when you inlet the tang...inlet straight down. Again I hope this has helped.


 
Yes, initially I assumed :redface: he had a lock inlet. But upon seeing the lockpanel later I saw it was not, thus why I said
to get some wood off the top & redraw the lock panel. Then see where he can put the lock. Since he has no lock inlet, he has
some variance where he can put it.
Anytime I buy a preshaped stock or get one partially shaped off one of my patterns & the RR hole drilled, the FIRST thing
I do is check the barrel fit. The 2nd thing I do is drill that lil 1/8" hole in the bottom of them barrel inlet, as I want to know
For Sure how thick the web is between the barrel & the RR hole & where my front lock screw is going to hit on it. This helps
me position the lock on the panel.

Keith Lisle

PS: And no... I am not a pro, I am a mere hobbyist that has built a couple dozen rifles. However, I have learned a
few things by errors & try not to repeat them. :doh: And also try to save some other some of the headaches I have had
from errors. When I started there was no internet to get advice from, and man I sure could have used some. :redface:
 
The Ram rod hole and channel was done by TVM. From my novice inspection, I think they went too high. The last 9" of barrel from the breech forward is completely routered out, and they went an extra 1/4" deeper than the ramrod hole would of been. I may fix this spot with some reinforcement and epoxy, but that's another day for sure on that.



Attached is a picture of what I did today. I gave the top a haircut. I pretty much took the top 1/2" extra off. I am about 1/8" from being level with the top of the barrel. The shorter line is the trigger. I tacked in a nail to see what it would feel like. It's not bad, could go back a 1/4", but I could live with it.

I have no sense of muzzleloader taste here. However, It does look like theres too much real estate on top there. My tang is a single 1 flat wide 3" long. I am tempted to shorten it down to 2 and 1/2 maybe a bit less. Still on the fence how to end it, rat tailed or bullet nosed, maybe leave it square. Not sure yet. How should the rear of the pan transition to the curve of the wood as it goes up the breech to the top.

The lock panel depth is more or less about right for the depth of the lock, maybe a 1/16". The sides are not parallel in the jaws of my vise though. I am using a 1/8" thick washer to level up the wood jaw pads, it's a bit skinny on the front.

I hacked down the stock channel down to 36". I ordered a 42" gun and it felt too front heavy. I cut the barrel, set the breech, and crowned the muzzle after the cut.

I would of profiled the wrist a bit more, but didn't have my grenville book with me and didn't have the ideal numbers for the wrist. It's needs smoothening out to get that nice oval.

My top face of the barrel channel need to go down about .1" inches. I am assuming it down to 1/2 flat. I don't own a block plane. Do I need to buy one now, or just use sandpaper, or a large file.
 
lock-leveled_zps1gd8m9dk.jpg





What I am trying to illustrate is the top line of the barrel continues into the wrist in a smooth line. Depending on the style, it will start to curve about where the tang starts past the breechlug.

Attached is a picture of what I did today. I gave the top a haircut. I pretty much took the top 1/2" extra off. I am about 1/8" from being level with the top of the barrel. The shorter line is the trigger. I tacked in a nail to see what it would feel like. It's not bad, could go back a 1/4", but I could live with it.

Well, All I can tell you is what I would do. Frankly, you are going to have to have your head in the game on this one as you have some challenges to overcome. More on that in a moment.

If you are happy with the barrel location and it does look like it is set. Now is the time to get that topline even with the barrel.

Triggers are long way away right now.

I have no sense of muzzleloader taste here.
Not to be "smart" but you really need to learn. The only way is study, preferably handling originals, good contemporaries or at least studying photographs. I have some good photos of an original for my private use, PM if you want me to email them to you.

However, It does look like theres too much real estate on top there. My tang is a single 1 flat wide 3" long. I am tempted to shorten it down to 2 and 1/2 maybe a bit less. Still on the fence how to end it, rat tailed or bullet nosed, maybe leave it square.

That's up to you as far as tang shape length. A pointed tang is a PIA. Personally I would keep it simple with a straight tang.
You need to continue the barrel line straight over the breech area wrist and into infinity...in other words continue that barrel top straight out the back. After that's done you have some options that being cleaning up the wrist line or starting your tang inlet. Personally I would clean up the wrist top line.
Since you removed the excess wood in the same plane as the barrel now you will have an obvious hump where the flat area meets the curve. You are not worried about nothing but that top line. This is going to be one of your first challenges with this stock. You want the barrel line to transition smoothly into the wrist. Think, go easy. You need a good wrist line because as you inlet the tang you will bend it to match that line.
You can work on your tang, you can even taper it some... make it thinner if you want most are pretty thick. make sure it has the drafts on the sides. If the tang is tapered or thinned a little Note the blue drawing with the percussion lock, look how thin that tang is It makes it easier to bend. I bent my tang on the vise matching the curve with a piece of wire that matched the curve.

I would of profiled the wrist a bit more, but didn't have my grenville book with me and didn't have the ideal numbers for the wrist. It's needs smoothening out to get that nice oval.
IMHO that's a long way away, not until you get the get the lock inlet. The only thing you should be concerned about is that top line, the barrel flowing into the wrist. Once you get the barrel pinned, tang set, lock inlet then you can go to town with the shaping. As Alexander says you have no real knowns until then...Why...Because it looks like you are using a generic stock for as large as a 1inch barrel. Those lock panels should mean nothing to you right now. Now they look like the Saratoga. Its not until you get the lock in and your proper panels outlined and then you can worry about the wrist.

My top face of the barrel channel need to go down about .1" inches. I am assuming it down to 1/2 flat. I don't own a block plane. Do I need to buy one now, or just use sandpaper, or a large file.

A file will do fine, it maybe slow but that's OK. If you need to take the rails down use a straight edge to mark what you are removing. Do one rail at a time. I used a flat chisel to cut the swoop and cleaned it up rat tail for the transition into the breech. If you use sand paper make sure you back it.

When you do your rails, go ahead and do the swoop where the rails terminate into the breech/wrist of the stock. I revealed a little more than half on this rifle. Revealing more as I got to the breech. It's up to you. I was going to set my lock pretty low. Keep in mind with a 13/16 barrel be careful how low you set your lock , too low and the pan may be lower than the flat...a disaster.

How should the rear of the pan transition to the curve of the wood as it goes up the breech to the top.

Just do both rails the same like in the photo. the lock will go where it goes IE where you put it for ideal vent/breech interface, it's OK if it is down the rails some many originals were that that way and most contemporaries are due to the longer breech plugs.

I hope I have not confused you. This is one of those thing I could point it out face to face but it's kind of hard to articulate through this medium.

A final word about shaping as you were concerned with numbers out of the Grenville book...that boat may have sailed when you ordered this stock. Grennville is about building from a blank. This is why I said you need to have your head in the game. TVM makes good stuff. But the web of ramrod channel tends to be thicker making their guns a little slab sided. Since you are going with a small barrel You are going to have to figure out what the best balance will be. The book is reference but there may be some things you'll have to tweak a little the keep the lines flowing.
 
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aahaahhhh..............I want to rasp that stock SO bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :stir: :stir: :stir:

marc n tomtom
 
That flat spot is getting bigger every time I look at it now.

Boy, you guys are spot on about getting that lock right. I got about 1/16th inch from the bottom of the pan to the bottom of the side flat If I put the flashhole level with the top edge of the pan. Should I set the lock a bit high, or buy a more slender lock with a smaller pan cut out for the flash hole?

LArger silers are known for good spark. but, others can be good too. Should I go with another lock. An early Virginia would likely be more at home with a queen ann. I'm not sure if a queen ann would be any better, may be worse.

I do have an unused Dixie Ashford Warranted LH pistol lock I could use.
 
Go here http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/294366/ and you will see what is very easy to do if you are not careful. I first install the barrel (without the breechplug). Then the touchhole. Then the lockplate. Next, the breechplug and lock internals. Now you can fit the trigger. If the pull is too long, cut off the stock a little. First things first will save you lots of trouble later.
 
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