Beading Question

[tryinhard]

Where do I learn to do it at?

TH

 

[paulvallandigham]

There are many books out on doing beadwork. Check your local library first, because you get the books to read for FREE. If you find one that is particularly helpful, you can order it for your personal library. If you meet a beadworker( we had a woman in our club who did fantastic work) they will be happy to have your company and can teach you. :hmm: :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[John Wasmuth]

As Paul wrote, there are many many books on beading that can be found at local librarys. You can also find some good instructional information at places like nativetech.com

 

[tryinhard]

I am wanting to make a beaded sheath for a bowie style knife I made several years ago. From what I can dig up on the 'net I will want a rawhide liner inside to protect the leather. Then I would cut out my leather, add my beading, and finally lace or stitch it all up. Is this correct?

 

[John Wasmuth]

You can loom the beads but first you have to map the design you want out on graph paper. Once you loom the beads and have it as you want it you can tack the bead work down onto a piece of suede or even canvas with some glue. Then stitch it to your knife sheath. This is just one way to do it, there are many other ways.

 

[LaBonte]

You can use rawhide as a liner or you can use veg/bark tan as the liner - much easier to work with.
For specifically making western style beaded sheaths I HIGHLY recommend the book by Alex Kozlov on the subject sold by Crazy Crow who also sells beading supplies as well as most of the books on beadwork:
Here's the link to the book..... http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merch...arch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high=

As for beadwork - I'd recommend the lane (aka lazy) stitch or the applique stitch rather than loom work - the size/type beads used (8/0 pony beads appropriater for pre-1850 work or seed beads in various sizes for all periods post 1800) and the type of stitch will depend on the tribal style you wish to emulate. To bead on you really need to use either real brain tan (talk to Micanopy who sells it) or the German Tan from Crazy Crow.
On most western sheaths the beadwork consisted of an upper beaded cuff and the lower section is then either partially beaded of fully beaded per your desires.

 

[John Wasmuth]

I see some times links being a cause for the discussion too be pulled from the page, but I hope this one is ok, cane be a lot better explained. http://www.nativetech.org/beadweav/bweav.html

 

[John Wasmuth]

:thumbsup: Thats a very
good sor all things beading as well. If you already have the sheath you can just make a cover for the front of it. If you bead the back as well it will wear againts your leg or clothing and will eventually cause the beads to loosen and come apart.

 

[colmoultrie]

Does Crazy Crow (or do others) sell any beads that would be appropriate for Eastern Woodlands prior to the Revolution? I'm just a rank amateur when it comes to beads, but my wife has volunteered to do some beading, and I'd prefer to at least get the materials right.

Yes, I have looked at nativetech, and it's a good site - have also looked at other sites and one or two books, but I'm either unlucky or just obtuse. Thanks.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I understand that most of the beads made today come from the Czech republic, but they were also the source of " trade beans" during the 17th and 18th century. Take a look at the Book of Buckskinning series from Muzzleloader magazine( Scurloch publishing Co.) for a good history on beads and beadwork. I don't have my books in front of me but they are all informative to read. The author gives great information on beads, and sources for them.

Give CrazyCrow a call and talk to them. They are good people, and I don't think they will lie to you.

OKay, I stopped long enough to go to the bookshelf in my bedroom to find out which volume has the article on "Trade Beads". Its in Book of Buckskinning III,at4 page 113. Its a well written article with a good history, and both black and white as well as color plates showing various styles of beadwork. You and your wife will like it. The Book cost $12.95 when I bought it back in 1985. Check Amazon, and e-bay to find available new and used copies. :bow:

 

[LaBonte]

Does Crazy Crow (or do others) sell any beads that would be appropriate for Eastern Woodlands prior to the Revolution? I'm just a rank amateur when it comes to beads, but my wife has volunteered to do some beading, and I'd prefer to at least get the materials right.

Yes, I have looked at nativetech, and it's a good site - have also looked at other sites and one or two books, but I'm either unlucky or just obtuse. Thanks.

For eastern work pre-Rev War the most widely used bead type and color based on extant items and info were the pound (aka pony) beads in white with some sky blue used.
From Crazy Crow you can get size 8/0 (which is the closest in size to the originals) and in various whites including chalk white.
I prefer the Old Time French or German beads from them since they are closer to the old pre-1850 bead colors.
Another source for beads and expert advice is Glass River Beads - you can get real old time white beads in pound bead size - not the cheapest source but you do get the real McCoy and most eastern beadwork on leather was limited in scope, most often used for edging or single line embroidery and not large coverage as common in the post 1830's west - quillwork was by far the most common form of deco during the pre Rev War era in the east. http://www.glassriverbeads.com/tradestrand/whitepound.htm

As to original beads sources it was in fact the Italians, specifically the Venetians who supplied the bulk of beads to the Americas and Africa up until sometime in the first half of the 1800's. They supplied both the necklace types of trade beads (chevrons, padres, etc.) as well as the emroidery beads, both seed and pound sizes. The Bohemian (Czech) made beads were a later import item, although today they are the major manufacturer.

For more info on traditional early, Eastern Woodland beadwork you might give Mike Galban a shout and see if he can steer you in the right direction for more info on what beads to use and how to use beads. You can see his work here and aso contact him - http://www.wanuken.com/

 

[paulvallandigham]

The problem with knowing what was COMMON with Eastern Indian cultures prior to 1800 or so is that there were no organized museums until the 19th century. What pieces exist come from private collections, and family records are not always Accurate on the date of the article. Some of the best sources of early information are found not here in the USA, but in England, and France, Believe it or not. Even the Dutch museums have articles saved from the early occupation of what is now New York.

Years ago, when I was trying to make up a local "Persona", I made a trip to the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, trying to find out what the Indians wore- cloth type, beads, shells, etc.-- particularly for the Potowatami, Sauk, and Kickapoo tribes which we know were living part-time in the central area of Illinois. A curator sent me to a Second floor galley, where there is a display of "Plains Indians" clothing, that includes some garb worn by Potowatami Indians. However, on viewing the display, The loin clothe, and shirt was made of gold fleur d lis on a royal blue background, clearly influenced by the French flag. That put the "clothing" displayed as AFTER Europeans had engaged these Indians in substantial TRADE, giving them the cloth to use to make these clothes.

I went back to the curator- behind those huge, Closed doors marked" Staff only" and asked him about earlier- pre-french garb, and he admitted the museum had NOTHING from those early Dates. Remember that it was the French who first Explored the " Illinois Country"- not the British.

Several friends interested in the French and Indian wars, clothing for their personae, have made the trip East to several museums and restored forts, looking for information. They have receive the same "news" from the curators of those sites- no one was collecting anything back then, as there was NO value placed by early settlers on preserving these "Heathen " cultures.

Sorry. :idunno: :hatsoff:

 

[necchi]

"The problem with knowing what was COMMON with Eastern Indian cultures prior to 1800 or so is that there were no organized museums"

True, but trade was well established by 1660 as far interior as Minnesota area. We do know what was brought over as trade goods.

The info LaBonte provided is excelant, and many of the beads shown on the Glass River Beads link are actual period beads,,the early beads weren't real fine or concentric. That's why you see so much seed bead (#10 and #11) in work nowadays, they look pretty, but that stuff dates reservation era,,1840>
,,see the thing to remember is when Europe began over sea trade it wasn't just the Americas. Currently alot of the actual beads are coming back into the market from Africa.

It is an iteresting study, the book you mentioned, Book of Buckskinnig III is a good one,,
,,"When Worlds Meet" by the MN historical society is another, might find that one in a library.

Being in Minn, I like the looks of the floral realistic of the woodland Annishabe but again thats a later trade period than pre 1760's

 

[LaBonte]

The problem with knowing what was COMMON with Eastern Indian cultures prior to 1800 or so is that there were no organized museums until the 19th century. What pieces exist come from private collections, and family records are not always Accurate on the date of the article. Some of the best sources of early information are found not here in the USA, but in England, and France, Believe it or not. Even the Dutch museums have articles saved from the early occupation of what is now New York.

Years ago, when I was trying to make up a local "Persona", I made a trip to the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, trying to find out what the Indians wore- cloth type, beads, shells, etc.-- particularly for the Potowatami, Sauk, and Kickapoo tribes which we know were living part-time in the central area of Illinois. A curator sent me to a Second floor galley, where there is a display of "Plains Indians" clothing, that includes some garb worn by Potowatami Indians. However, on viewing the display, The loin clothe, and shirt was made of gold fleur d lis on a royal blue background, clearly influenced by the French flag. That put the "clothing" displayed as AFTER Europeans had engaged these Indians in substantial TRADE, giving them the cloth to use to make these clothes.

I went back to the curator- behind those huge, Closed doors marked" Staff only" and asked him about earlier- pre-french garb, and he admitted the museum had NOTHING from those early Dates. Remember that it was the French who first Explored the " Illinois Country"- not the British.

Several friends interested in the French and Indian wars, clothing for their personae, have made the trip East to several museums and restored forts, looking for information. They have receive the same "news" from the curators of those sites- no one was collecting anything back then, as there was NO value placed by early settlers on preserving these "Heathen " cultures.

Sorry. :idunno: :hatsoff:

Actually Paul if you did some current research instead of depending on what you did years ago you would find quite a wealth of info on the Indians material culture of the period, including documented items from both Euro and American sources as well as period written literature such as trade lists which clearly detail the source of trade items such as beads and that source was mainly Venice until the mid-1800's.
Again for more info on eastern woodland Indians I would contact or find articles by those who have continued to do the research such as Mike Galban, James Blake, Fred Lucas, Shawn Webster, and Tom Patton who sometimes posts here as Okwaho - these are all students who continually study the material culture (extant items in collections as well as continually excavated items) and many have worked closely with museums both here and in Europe. While it's true we will never no everything about the past we do now have well documented and provenanced sources that give us a much clearer view of the past and what was common than we did even ten years ago.
Being helpful is fine but lack of information based on what was known years ago or even mis-information is not helpful and it takes constant attention to ongoing research in order to keep on top of things i.e. continuing education....
And no I do NOT consider myself an expert on the subject, but the study of Indian gear is an ongoing situation with me and when I offer info I offer info based on the most current research available, which at times trumps the research from years ago both in it's quality and how things are put into context.

That's why you see so much seed bead (#10 and #11) in work nowadays, they look pretty, but that stuff dates reservation era,,1840

While it's true that much of the seed beaded goods which are being replicated are post 1840 or mostly the even later rez period, seed beads were imported as early as the late 1700's and show up in various quantities on trade lists from then on. Excavated seed beads with good dating from as early as 1800, show up in sizes as small as 18/0 - really small stuff.
It's not just bead sizes that need to be taken into consideration, but the style of beading and the amount of it on the particular articles that date it.

 

[necchi]

"Excavated seed beads with good dating from as early as 1800, show up in sizes as small as 18/0 - really small stuff"
Wow, that's neat, I guess different parts of the country had different trade routes too, here in Minn and Wisc we actualy have two major trade routes that have been used from way early.
Different bands of NDN had different life styles and technique, most friendly and some not.
The state is still kind of devided tween tribes with some amount of anamosity found in a few groups.
We have a wondefull diversity, but one needs to be at least aware of what you have, or what your wearing, if you travel from north to south. :wink:
Out of respect, there are some items I won't own or try to replicate unless it's given too me.

 

[Billnpatti]

Out of respect, there are some items I won't own or try to replicate unless it's given too me.

That is interesting. What sort of items are you referring to?

 

[LaBonte]

Not necchi but like him there are items I won't replicate and all are those with "religious" provenance, in fact I prefer to design my own albeit based on originals in so far as materials, methods, and basic styles...

necchi - the Museum of the Fur Trade Journal has a good article on beads in one of their past issues and the Book of Buckskinning #8 has an excellent article on pre-1850 western beadwork.

 

[necchi]

"That is interesting. What sort of items are you referring to?"

Labonte said it, religous items(Turtle,Crane,Drum, improper display of Snake). The War shirt and some of the markings that go on them. Ribbon shirt.
Bonnets,Bustles an Roaches. Several animals are common enough to not worry about, Crow, Wolf, Bear, Buffalo (but ya wanna stay away from White Buffalo symbls).

It's just respect when you live or Rendezvous in and around areas of Reservations, and we have plenty in Minn. The Culture and Pow wow is still current and alive,,
I digress, I still do like olde and new nicley done bead work,,

 

[tryinhard]

What does the lightning bolt symbolize?

TH

 

[necchi]

Ya really gotta study a local, it can vary in different regions;
S.W.; Lightning is with rain, Rain=Fertility
Mountian; lightning is with Thunder, Thunder=Strong or Angry

Could be just a white man thing that looks cool too, :grin: :idunno:
I think we used a lightning bolt in the Rev War.