Beer BARM in Bread

[Loyalist Dave]

July 26th Zonie Wrote:
Well, it seems we're all done talking about wheat bread.
Maybe someday, someone will start a new post where we can talk about baking bread and limit the thread to talking about bread instead of global warming.

How About Today?
And you don't want us to even think about mentioning how global warming is changing the wheat crop, or GMO's being used ???



Well then...,
Has anybody used ale yeast to make their bread in camp? I bring it up since the yeast of the colonial times, and up into the beginning of the 19th century, was from brewing vats where they made ale (even though it was referred to then as "beer"; Pasteur had not yet done his research).

I have and there are a few "tricks" to it, especially in the summer. You use liquid yeast cells from the bottom of a fermenter, OR you culture some dry brewing yeast in a sterile container with sterile sugar water, and that's all the liquid that you use for the dough. You want a little sea salt, like a pinch or so, in your dough as well, and if your flour doesn't have some malted flour or ground malt in the dough, you need a sugar source, such as honey.

Ale yeast likes temps lower than 70 degrees, and …, it likes a huge population of yeast cells, hence the large amount of liquid yeast or "barm". This combines to give you about a 12 hour clock on the first "rise" of the bread. (you will note that modern bread yeast rises in about two hours and it like to be up around 100-110 degrees. NOT ale yeast). Add to the problem that the yeast will give off a degree or two of added heat...,

So in addition to the large amount of liquid ale yeast, and the time, you make the dough at about 6 p.m., knead it, etc. THEN set it aside in the dough bowl, covered with a damp cloth. The following morning between 04:00 and 06:00 it will have finally risen. Then you punch it down, and bake at about 7 or 8, as you would any other basic bread.

Why would we use that stuff then ?
Glad you asked...., commercial bread yeast was cultured and is now sold to not impact the bread with any, or very little, added flavor. The yeast company has no idea what sort of bread you will make so doesn't want a flavor that will conflict with what you make. Ale yeast, and there are a bunch, give your bread added flavor. PLUS you get to actually experience some of the quirks of the historic bakers.

Doesn't that make sourdough ?
You can save some of the dough as a future sponge. It's a mistake that some archaeologist make when they assume that lactobacilli must be present in a dough starter that sits at room temp for 2 to 3 days. I know, as I got a really nice sourdough starter once, and lost it. The second time I tried it the sponge didn't sour, even though I kept it in a clay crock on the counter top, as I had the first sponge. So you "might" get sourdough starter, or maybe not. IF you make the bread each day as a baker might back in the 18th century, probably not going to sour.

Any other tips?
Glad you asked..., yes IF you get the stuff from the bottom of a beer fermenter, know that it will probably contain bits of hops, which can make your bread bitter, so you either add some extra honey, or don't use the "trube" from the fermenter, and culture the Ale yeast in its own container.

LD

 

[Brokennock]

Even though I eat almost no bread, that was all very interesting. Thank you.
Any chance we can get a recipe or two for the bread you've made using the Ale Yeast?

 

[NeilMacleod]

One could do a "Sourdough Starter" using ale yeast and have a continues stock to bake with.
https://pastrychefonline.com/baking-with-brewers-yeast/

 

[Carbon 6]

Well then...,
Has anybody used ale yeast to make their bread in camp? I bring it up since the yeast of the colonial times, and up into the beginning of the 19th century, was from brewing vats where they made ale (even though it was referred to then as "beer"; Pasteur had not yet done his research).


LD

Yes, I've done it.
I would top crop as opposed to using the yeast cake on the bottom. The yeast cake can contain a lot of undesirable off flavors. I've had the pleasure of standing next to a 2 story fermenter of wheat beer watching the "barm" flow over the top from active fermentation. I'ts quite a sight to see, and the smell was amazing. I wanted to go for a swim.

I am currently experimenting with the pâte fermentée (old dough) method as a means of continually making bread, I'm on generation #4 with fantastic results. I've been using the dough to make bread and pizzas alternating between white and whole wheat.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I've been using the dough to make bread and pizzas alternating between white and whole wheat.

A little warning next time.... now I have to clean saliva/drool off my keyboard....

LD

 

[Carbon 6]

A little warning next time.... now I have to clean saliva/drool off my keyboard....

LD

Sorry, If only you could taste the pizza. But, I will warn you, you have to eat it with forks only. It tastes so good that if you use your hands you might accidentally gnaw off a finger by accident.

 

[Zonie]

Thanks Loyalist Dave for starting this topic. I hope everyone keeps on talking about the subject and we don't get sidetracked.

I did a quickie Google check and see there are quite a lot of different companies offering Brewing Yeast. Do you know if there are any real differences between the brands being offered or are they all basically the same stuff?

I'm betting the "Brewers Yeast" pills being sold at the health food stores are not the way to go if a person wants to try making brewers yeast bread.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Carbon 6]

I did a quickie Google check and see there are quite a lot of different companies offering Brewing Yeast. Do you know if there are any real differences between the brands being offered or are they all basically the same stuff?

There are a multitude of yeast strains all with their own characteristics. Some companies may sell the same strain as another company, but even then there can be subtle differences among the same strain produced by different manufacturers.

If ever one needed proof of evolution, just look at yeast strains.

Yeast pills, probably would not make beer at all, the yeast have probably all been killed or are dead and serve only as a source of B vitamins.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Thanks Loyalist Dave for starting this topic. I hope everyone keeps on talking about the subject and we don't get sidetracked. I did a quickie Google check and see there are quite a lot of different companies offering Brewing Yeast. Do you know if there are any real differences between the brands being offered or are they all basically the same stuff? I'm betting the "Brewers Yeast" pills being sold at the health food stores are not the way to go if a person wants to try making brewers yeast bread. Any thoughts on this?

You're welcome. I was also going for a chuckle from you..., you do a lot for the forum that goes unnoticed. :thumbs up:

Yes the various strains of brewer's yeast are different. Some of the oldest brands were simply taken from a local area, and are what gave that area it's dominant strain. Folks for years wondered why two towns a day's journey apart, would both have good ale, but the ale would noticeably different in flavors, when the climate and the type of barley and perhaps even the same river was used for water... answer in many cases, the yeast strain.

What a lot of your "natural bread" folks end up doing, is they are culturing their local yeast, especially if they let natural fermentation in a sugar/water source take place, then after several such batches, transfer that to bread making. Those several batches serve to promote the most dominant strain (if more than one strain is present). Then after that, the beer or the bread has one local yeast from which to be made.

The commercial yeast for bread was cultured to give off a lot of CO₂, and much less alcohol, and to do it rather fast at a pretty high temp for yeast. A laboratory improved version or two use the term "rapid rise" in their description. Some of the modern yeast is also selected as it freezes and thaws well. My son is a "grocery store baker", and a lot of their products come in frozen, and then are proofed in the store after thawing, then baked.

In our modern world we have sacrificed to speed-of-production some of the quality of our bread (imho). For example, I asked an "authentic baker" after trying her wares, which were good, why she was using a modern yeast instead of ale yeast. She explained she could not make enough dough for the demand...but the rest of the dough recipe was correct.

I wondered where, other than the risk of the dough not proofing, was the problem if one made the dough at 5 a.m. and baked from 7 - 9, vs. making the dough at 6 p.m. the night before and baking at the same time the following day ??

The brewer's yeast pills, for you, or for your dog..., nah, not the way to go. They will give you a shiny coat and help your body metabolize nutrients though....

LD

 

[Carbon 6]

. My son is a "grocery store baker", and a lot of their products come in frozen, and then are proofed in the store after thawing, then baked.

I've always called those "fakeries".
Central production of franchise baked goods and freezing, shipping and then thawing and speed baking has ruined many bread products IMO, from pizza franchises to doughnuts.

I wondered where, other than the risk of the dough not proofing, was the problem if one made the dough at 5 a.m. and baked from 7 - 9, vs. making the dough at 6 p.m. the night before and baking at the same time the following day ??


LD

In my current experiment I am using about a 24 hour rise. I let the dough rise the first time at room temp for a couple hours to get the yeast going. Then I refrigerate until the next day. Then I shape and do the final rise and bake.

One thing I have noticed is that the rise times have increased with each generation. The first two generations used commercial yeast in decreasing amounts but since it has been strictly "old dough" I suspect rise level will plateau but I may need to do a starter at some point to build back up an initial cell count.

 

[NeilMacleod]

The more generations the stronger it gets, that what I found in many fermentation processes including keffir, I use the old batch to start a new batch and it goes much quicker.

 

[Carbon 6]

I think the commercial strain i started with was a one trick pony. It's taking time to retrain it. The flavor has been improving over the original. But I am intentionally retarding the growth to prevent the dough from going sour. I don't want to end up with sourdough.
One thing that has impressed me is the quality, structure, and flavor of my whole wheat bread during this experiment. It just keeps improving.

 

[RAEDWALD]

I see that tests on assorted traditional yeast strains show that they are more related to the yeast strains on baker's hands than on yeast floating around the local environment. New baker comes into town. His hands have the same type as was being use for bread where last worked. Bakers apprentice develops yeast strains on his hands of his master baker (he types carefully). I would imagine that your sourdough begun at home is related to your hands.

 

[Carbon 6]

I would imagine that your sourdough begun at home is related to your hands.

Yeast like to live on our mucousal surfaces, S. cerevisiae in particular.
So the question I wonder is, where have our hands been and do we wash them?
Oh, and those fingernails.
Fun fact, during the microbiome project Saccharomyces was found living in roughly 92% of stool samples.

 

[Carbon 6]

I am currently experimenting with the pâte fermentée (old dough) method as a means of continually making bread, I'm on generation #4 with fantastic results. I've been using the dough to make bread and pizzas alternating between white and whole wheat.

Update!
I made another pizza again tonight, I think this is the 6th generation of dough. All is still going well. My rise times are getting longer but I think that's because I'm starting with less dough, Or less yeast in the dough.
The dough has not gone sour yet, and tastes great.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I see that tests on assorted traditional yeast strains show that they are more related to the yeast strains on baker's hands than on yeast floating around the local environment.

Ah but the question THEN is, are they testing baker's hands from bakeries using yesterday's dough to make today's bread? The old method was to get the barm from the local brewer each day, and it was forbidden by law for the brewery to refuse the baker barm, and the price was set per quart as well.

LD

 

[Nyckname]

Something else I'd love to know is who first mixed the leftovers from brewing into dough, and discovered that it made the bread rise better.

And why they chose to do it in the first place.

And how much of the beer they'd "sampled" before doing it.

 

[Carbon 6]

Ah but the question THEN is, are they testing baker's hands from bakeries using yesterday's dough to make today's bread? The old method was to get the barm from the local brewer each day, and it was forbidden by law for the brewery to refuse the baker barm, and the price was set per quart as well.

LD

I have trouble believing that there would have been enough barm produced from brewing to make all the bread on a daily basis. Once you enter the 19th century we start seeing commercial production of yeast.

 

[tenngun]

Something else I'd love to know is who first mixed the leftovers from brewing into dough, and discovered that it made the bread rise better.

And why they chose to do it in the first place.

And how much of the beer they'd "sampled" before doing it.

Just an idea, beer making is old, maybe older then the beginning of civilization. Bread was just flat loaves of flour and water. And some one thought” I wonder what would the bread taste like if I put beer instead of water in to the mix.” For some reason was delayed in the cooking then puff

 

[Zonie]

Yup.
I think the idea of using some beer or ale in bread came about a long time ago to make it rise. That was long before the modern idea of pasteurizing beer was known.
Pasteurizing beer kills the yeast that is left in modern beers so they don't have the same effect on the bread as they used to. They do add a bit of flavor though.