Belgian flintlock repro

[Tourblanche]

Background :
One historical reenactment group I belong to is very family oriented , we used to volunteer in a museum and mostly giving
demonstrations in crafts , songs , dances , cooking but we got
the flintlock safety training to use the museum' s ( repro ) muzzleloaders at special occasions .

We do not volunteer at the museum anymore but we were offered to buy a dozen or so of old " made in Belgium" flintlocks . made by F.A.U.L. ( Fabriques d' Armes Unies de Liège )

From the stamp , these guns were proofed in Liège between 1958 and 1968
http://www.1960nma.org/ProofHouse/Marks of the Liege Proof House-110909.htm

These guns look a bit .... well ... weird .

The weirdest part is the barrrel , that is made from some sort of high pressure tubing and is totally cylindrical .

I heard that they were made for trading on the african market in early 1900 and were later dumped on the
" collector " market , sold by various corporations in Europe and the USA

maybe sold by Dixie , Navy Arms or Stoeger ?

I would like to get as much informations as possible of these guns .

Thanks in advance :wink:

 

[hawkeye2]

I don't believe Dixie ever sold any. Century Arms Internatonal, StAlbens, VT, sold these in the mid 70s. A guy showed up with one of these and wanted to join our rifle company. We told him that he could join but the gun stayed home. I can't imagine any use for one of them and wouldn't offer you a "Thank you" to anyone who tried to give me one.

 

[DickS]

I remember these guns being sold by Century through their Firearms International outlet in Montreal, Canada. I believe these guns were made using a mix of old and new parts. The flint guns with the two piece locks appear to have used old back action locks, which would have been percussion when made, with a new front portion carrying the frizzen, frizzen spring and pan. One of these turned up at an area auction in the last year. The barrels, having gone through the Liege proof house, were capable of being fired.
In the photo, the bottom gun has a very distinct buttplate which I recognize. I recall these were very large bore smoothbores made for the African trade, for shooting large game. I remember mention being made of this by a US retailer, simply do not recall now if it was Dixie.
During this same period, Dixie was selling quite a lot of items which originated in Belgium. Their first muzzleloading rifle, which really contributed to the popularization of muzzleloading shooting, was Belgian. There were also a lot of parts - barrels, locks, etc.
Centennial Arms, in Chicago, sold Belgian replicas of Civil War revolvers. I have a 1860 Colt replica made in Belgium probably over 40 years ago.

 

[Tourblanche]

The back action one is a different animal

It was once made from a percussion lock ( Burnside ? )

with a pan and frizzen added in front

when the original surplus ran out , they made a cast single piece lockplate .

These have " normal " tapered , octogon to round barrels made in Liège . They are of a smaller calibre and are often
still safe to shoot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPFTBofYA98

It is the cylindrical barrels that worry me .
:hmm:

 

[Tourblanche]

By the way , your Colt was probably made at the Hanquet
workshop

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20hanquet%20jean%20baptiste%20fr.htm
http://www.1960nma.org/Hanquets/HanquetsGunDynasty030109.htm
http://www.1960nma.org/index.html

 

[Tourblanche]

Century Arms Internatonal, StAlbans, VT, sold these in the mid 70s.

I remember these guns being sold by Century through their Firearms International outlet in Montreal, Canada



I do live near Montréal , but Century Arms has moved to Florida since quite some time now .

In Montréal , Century mostly sold wholesale to retailers .
Was there a retailer selling thoses in Montréal ?

I wonder if I could find an old catalog ?

Maybe they have a public relation dept ?

 

[DickS]

International Firearms was the storefront retail operation for Century International Arms. It was on Bleury St.
Century was a Canadian business, with the US base in St. Albans.
I do not recall seeing one of the backaction flintlocks with the one piece lockplate before.
Century moved to Florida after the change in Cdn. legislation. The US market is huge conmpared with the Canadian. I was able to tour the Century warehouse in the greater Montreal area on occasion. Remarkable to be in a building containing 160,000 firearms.
Trade Ex Canada is a current business in Montreal operated by the former sales manager from Century and his son.
I recall Shore Galleries was the parent company of Centennial Arms.
When I acquired the Belgian 1860 reproduction, it had seen better days, and the cylinder pin had to be replaced. Ended up making one, fitting a new wedge in the process. Shoots very well now.
My brother, who was involved with defence research, travelled extensively. On a visit to businesses in Belgium, he made a side trip to the Musee de la Vie Wallon in Liege. He was very impressed with the barrels of Zenobe Gramme, which were on display there.
I don't know where you could locate old catalogues or advertisements. You might consider going to www.canadiangunnutz.com, and posting an inquiry there.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

There is a whole page of such flinters offered in the 1952 Stoeger's Cat. I just saw the ad page last week . IIRC they were advertised as NEW.

(I bought another collection of old gun catelogues and outdoors mags and it takes a while to sort through the stuff.)

 

[DickS]

You're right. They were listed there.
The various annual gun publications would also be worth checking.

 

[Tourblanche]

Souvenirs ........
ager
I remember the Bleury street store , I bought a .22" there
on their closing sale , when I was a teenager .

I also bought parts from Century ( on Gouin bvl ? ) , via Le Baron store .

I will have a look at the canadian forum .

What do you call " cylindre pin " ?

 

[DickS]

Base pin, cylinder pin - the arbor on which the cylinder rotates, through which the wedge passes to secure the barrel.
Someone had messed up the threads, so it was loose in the frame, and had tried to install a screw to tighten it up, breaking off a tap in the process. Getting it apart was harder than repairing it. One of the nipples had an easy out broken off in it. Used a diamond burr to remove that, and excavate the broken nipple until I could collapse the stump.
I forget Century's address; it was on the west side. Building about the size of a large arena.

 

[rickystl]

Hey Tourblanche: Thanks for posting!! The second photo with the two-piece lock. That's the exact one I owned. Bought it in 1964 new for $35-40.00 from Century Arms. That was a month's salary from my paper route. I recall the frizzen was not hardened very well. Also, I seem to recall the butt plate, triggerguard, and barrel bands were brass plated steel castings. I also remember the muzzle of the barrel was not cut off perfectly straight. :haha: I was 14 years old then. Had a lot of fun shooting blank loads in the back yard. Thanks again for the memories. Rick.

 

[hounddog]

Gentlemen. I have one of those old guns, It has the massive backaction flintlock measures 8 1/2 long one piece plate, 39 inch bbl .735 at muzzle, one unique feature, the tumbler does not have a 1/2 cock notch, the hammer is notched with a brass catch held in place with a screw. you have to set the external 1/2 cock to carry the piece loaded. you must cock hammer to full cock the safety piece drops down and you can fire. It rather primitive but works fine. after reading the preceding posts I am vertually certain I have one of those belgin repo, coma aring the gun with the pics only confirms it, my bbl says made in belgum right on top. yours hounddog

 

[BEP]

Hey Tourblanche: Thanks for posting!! The second photo with the two-piece lock. That's the exact one I owned. Bought it in 1964 new for $35-40.00 from Century Arms. That was a month's salary from my paper route. I recall the frizzen was not hardened very well. Also, I seem to recall the butt plate, triggerguard, and barrel bands were brass plated steel castings. I also remember the muzzle of the barrel was not cut off perfectly straight. :haha: I was 14 years old then. Had a lot of fun shooting blank loads in the back yard. Thanks again for the memories. Rick.

I too had one like that, paid for by delivering papers also. Mine was about .54 caliber or so, with a two-piece stock; the joint was hidden by a barrel band. I bought mine for about the same price from J&G Rifle Ranch, before they were called J&G Sales (now out of business when the owner passed away).

Mine didn't spark worth a darn. So I cut some small blocks of wood that fit in the hammer jaws and drilled those blocks to hold a couple of snapped-off Ohio Blue Tip strike anywhere wood matches. Talk about a snap-sizzle-boom when the trigger was pulled! Ignition, although reliable, was a long process! Guess you could also call my setup a "matchlock" as well. :rotf:

Good times.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Sneezy!! That's right it was a two-piece stock hidden by the rear barrel band. Yes, mine was about a .54 cal. too. That Ohio match set-up. :rotf: I love it!! :rotf:
I sent my frizzen to Dixie Gun Works for hardening. I think the cost was $6.50 then. Sparked better. I remember Dupont black powder was $2.00 a pound!! The paper route kept me in powder and flints. Thanks for posting. Rick.

 

[Tourblanche]

I am surprised by the number of people who once owned one of these . :wink:

I notice that we are pretty much the same age .

How about the first type

Anyone remember those ?

 

[Irishmusket]

I have many my first blackpowder gun Was a Belgian flintlock trade musket when I was 14 years old I am 68 now I still own it still shoot it .These guns are neat some what temperamental Mine is marked Centaur my father got it for me From Century arms.It started my love of black powder .It has a 36 inch barrel 28 gauge two piece lock I buy them when I find em currently I own 10 of them some them have 51 barrels 28 gauge boy do they pattern well out to 20 to 30 yards and ball to 60 yards have taken many turkeys with them.I own three percussion Belgian trade muskets all of them have 37 inch barrels and 16 gauge two are backlocks one has a lorenz lock they are all three banders these are rugged and very reliable the pattern well to 25 to30 yards and are not tempermental .I have hunted all of my life never used a breech loader for hunting I own matchlock muskets english locks doglocks brown bess muskets most of these are modern repros one kirkland early Dixie gunworks 40 cal flintlock long rifle made in Belgium It good rifle very accurate when loaded right. I donot hunt with It or not often Its just for fancy ball shooting at 50 yards I find rifles to limiting for hunting in New England .A Belgian flintlock trade musket can work well for you if take care of it Load it correctly The two piece locks work well if your frizzen is properly hardened and fitted and you MUST have the proper size flint all of mine use 3/4x3/4 and it’s very important to get good spark You will need to tinker thats the fun of it.Been an active gunsmith since early70s specialize on tradtional black powder guns

 

[RAEDWALD]

Looked down on now but the 20th century Belgian South American and African muskets were properly proofed and will be a collectors curiosity one day and treasured by your great grandchildren. They have their own history, which is just as valid as any other and very different.

 

[Leadball loader]

I have the top one on the list. The Charleville was purchased for reacting the Arnold Expedition celebration in 1975.
I fired a lot of blank rounds but never live rds. It is a 5/8ths bore and Belgian Proofed.
It is hanging on my living room wall
LBL

 

[Rudyard]

Raedwald is right they are crude affairs but they are a part of historical gun production ugly ducklings really but they are what they are & clearly while some distain them others Like' .Irish musket' has had many and thinks well of them . I made a Nigerian Foo Foo /' Dane 'gun native made flint lock( of course ) using galved water pipe . Stood proof ( In a rabbit hole ) and remains an example not many outside of West Africa . .Nice to have a Manton but such guns have their own charm .
Rudyard