Belted Ball Flintlock?

[Loyalist Dave]

Hello all,
Here is a link to what appears to be a flintlock rifle built for civilian use, for a belted ball. Belted Ball Flintlock The idea is sorta similar to that of the Whitworth rifle, in that the ball was made to fit the bore which twisted, and thus a patch was not necessary. This ideas was used on the British military Brunswick Rifle, which was caplock. This is the first time that I've seen such on a flintlock. Alas but I could not find in the article nor anywhere else online what caliber was this rifle, as well as the twist rate. Any of you folks who have the referenced books where this rifle appears as cited in the article, can you help with that information?

I wonder if there is gas lost around the ball, or if the performance would benefit from a wad between the powder and the ball. I also wonder since the belt on the ball engages the rifling..., if leading didn't become a problem. Was this an idea for a faster reload coupled with accuracy, for human combat since the cloth patch was omitted? If one was going to spit a ball down the barrel as it's alleged to have been done by Lewis Wetzel when in dire, deadly need..., you'd be out of luck since you need to orient the ball and ram it instead of letting gravity do the work.

An oddity I think that solved a problem that didn't really exist, maybe?

:idunno:

LD

 

[Rifleman1776]

In the history of firearms evolution there is little that hasn't been tried. That belted ball rifle you show, while not common, is not completely unique. A well known gunsmith once showed me a huge (2 bore if I recollect correctly) :shocked2: rifle made for hunting african big game that used a belted ball. Methinks if it was a practical idea we would still be using that concept.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Way Cool! As we used to say, once upon a long time ago! :wink:

Those oddly shaped balls and projectiles really got some folk's motor running through history. Capt. Berner (or Brenner) of the Brunswick army came up with the belted ball for military use et voila, the Brunswick Rifle.
General John Jacob of the Anglo-Indian army came up with similar but with two wings at 90 degrees from one another and you got a Brunswick and a half! There was even an explosive version of this one, details mercifully left out, that exploded an ammunition wagon at 2,000 yards! :shocked2:
A Lancaster rifle has been found with a 'Diamond" bore or rather looking like the cross section of an American football.
Then there's the famous hexagonal bore of Whitworth rifles, with both casting ad swaging methods made to ring the last drop of accuracy out of inventor's fevered minds.
Oh well...wonder if anyone tried to shoot a cube? :wink:

 

[bore_butter]

the flintlock Puckle revolving rifle had a square barrel for the square projectile to shoot at the Turks. Christians got the round ammo.

 

[Wes/Tex]

https://enoughgun.com/forum/downloa...oughgun.com/forum/download/file.php?id=1396cc
While technically correct, as you can see from the old pic only the magazine was square...the barrel was still round and you'd get a lot of 'mashed' versions around the sides. The idea was soon scrapped since cubes of lead had seriously flawed trajectory!

 

[bore_butter]

that might not have worked well but it would look great sitting in my family room.

 

[Captjoel]

I once owned this very rifle made by Abias Butler Smith and posted it along with pictures here on this forum around early 2011 or late 2010.

The bore size is 32 caliber and the twist is slow, running one turn down the full length of the 45" barrel.

The pictures were in my photobucket (puke) account and now lost to their treacherous profiteering schemes!

I'd be more than happy to answer any questions that I may know about this Western PA rifle which was made ca 1840 in Clinton PA, Allegheny County and not a Bedford County piece. Joel

 

[Captjoel]

From my research thru the KRA on the belted ball rifle I gathered that a thin patch was used during the loading process.

I never did any experimenting by shooting this rifle, as the frizzen was too soft to make any sparks and I did not acquire a belted RB mold.

I do not know who the current owner is, as it was sold thru the Rock Island auction house a year or two ago.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

WOW so this was tiny in bore size. I thought perhaps somebody wanted a "faster" loading rifle, or for really hot loads to be able to reach out far, and thus the belting would ensure a spin on such high powder loads when the patched ball might fail..., but in a .32?

:idunno:

Can't see why anybody need that much velocity or speed of reloading with a .32.

LD

 

[Captjoel]

I really don't think that this 178 year old rifle saw much use. The bore it had was nearly pristine! The condition of this piece is also quite a wonder, looking like a fairly new build.

When I first started showing it around I was asked by many if perhaps it was built by Bill Shipman or Mark Silver! :grin:

It is one of those many regrets I have for letting it go.

 

[Wes/Tex]

It is one of those many regrets I have for letting it go.

We've all been there a time or 12! :wink:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

TEACH BROTHER ! AMEN! :bow:

LD

 

[RAEDWALD]

They were meant to be used with a cloth patch soaked in tallow. The earliest known examples were Spanish from the late 16th/early 17th century. Captain Brener (?) served in Spain in the Peninsula War with the King's German Legion where he probably saw some. He made no claim for inventing the idea but suggested it for the Brunswick Army later.
They allowed a larger charge in a tighter twist than a spherical ball in conventional fast rifling as they would not strip over the lands as easily.

The belted ball became superceded in the 2 groove by winged bullets of conoidal form with ribs cast to fit the grooves instead. These were also patched. General Jacobs bullets were 4 ribbed bullets instead of 2.

The Russian Army used Belgian made Brunswick Rifle copies ('Luttich' as the Russian for Liege) as their main rifle and they withdrew them from belted ball to replace them with new sights and to use the 'Kulikov' 2 groove winged (ie 2 ribbed) conoidal bullet. Pretty much the same design was proposed and trialled by the British Army with success but the new rifle muskets with Delvigne/Minie bullets were coming into service so no change was made. A shame as the Brunswick was still being assembled and issued into the 1860's but with the original belted ball but the period bean counters did not want the expense of making expensive new rear sights to make use of the successful winged bullets..

 

[nkbj]

Exploding ammunition wagons...
I've wondered if large bore muzzleloading rifles were used as precision artillery in the days before breech loaders. Putting something in a .58 or .69 projectile couldn't have been all that difficult.

 

[Col. Batguano]

50 cal BMG rounds can be fused (though without much more than a marker charge), and 20mm is about what people feel is about the minimum for an effective H.E. round these days, (those shells have about a 1/4 oz. charge in them) so it would seem entirely feasable that a larger caliber round, like say 75-80 cal could be made with an exploding charge in it back in the day. You wouldn't be abe to get very much in a round ball though. My hunch is that somewhere around 1 1/2" bore was probably about the minimum for anything remotely effective in a RB.

 

[Wes/Tex]

General Delvigne Jacobs of the British army described using exploding rounds to ignite caissons an ammo wagons at long range with what amounted to a Mine ball with a cavity drilled or cast in the nose with a small amount of powder and a cap to set it off on impact. Several attempts were made doing similar and inserting the then new .22 rimfire case, less the slug, in the nose of a Minie ball. To be honest, I've tried it myself with mixed results...about 30% ignition even fired at fairly solid objects...and ramming the round was a delicate undertaking! :wink:

In 1863, Samuel Gardiner, Jr. of New York City patented a version with a tube inserted into the base of the Minie that gave the ball about a second or two's flight time before going off. IN honesty, these were intended for Jacobs type of military application but were used on rare occasions against human targets...whether on purpose is still speculated. This short video shows Gardiner's bullet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7DbQ2sw9vU

 

[RAEDWALD]

It was these assorted explosive bullets which prompted the St. Petersburg Convention of 1868 to ban the use of explosive shells of less than 400 grams in war. Thus it gave rise to assorted @37mm shells as the smallest that were legal in war.

They remained legal for sporting (?) use for some time later.