Bending/Fitting Cast Muzzle Cap

[Joemolf]

Deleted cap too small back to TOTW for one that will fit

 

[dave_person]

Hi Joe,
If you heat it red hot and let it air cool or quench in water, it will anneal making forming it to the barrel easier. Do not bend it hot, however. It must be completely cooled. I find that cap usually can be squeezed to the barrel without annealing but just a little bit. I urge you to first grind away some of the metal inside the cap so you will have more wood thickness. If you just put it on as is, the tongue of wood left after fiting will be very thin.

dave

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I hate cast muzzlecaps. I always make them out of sheet brass

 

[Joemolf]

Dave I just found that out!. I don’t think TOTW gave me the correct cap. The barrel is a Rice B profile at the muzzle it measures 13/16”! At the butt approximately 1 inch. Obviously different because it is swamped but the problem as you point out I’m getting to thin so I stopped. I think what I needed is a 15/16 but that is muzzle size if I am not mistaken. There’s no way the 13/16 muzzle cap will work it needs more depth. I just don’t get it with track I didn’t pick it they did almost ruined the stock. So I need a different cap and just looking none of the biven caps will work because I assume they are cut the octagon that is to fit the front of the barrel. What do you suggest? And thank you!

 

[Joemolf]

I hate cast muzzlecaps. I always make them out of sheet brass

If I had your skills I would but I don’t so I’m in a pinch now see my reply to Dave. Thanks!

 

[Joemolf]

I tried calling TOTW for an alternative but different time zone hopefully they have something that will work.

 

[Joemolf]

The cap they included must be for a straight barrel A size stock which I believe to be the smallest

 

[Joemolf]

I had it nicely shaped the stock that is; thank goodness there’s epoxy and I left enough wood at the butt end of cap

 

[Joemolf]

Does anyone know of a supplier that sells blank muzzle caps i can cut my own facets in ?

 

[Joemolf]

as it turns out TOTW doesn’t have a muzzle cap to go along with the stock kit they sold before covid. So what I got was a cap to fit the end of the barrel but not the stock. Lol some people really crack me up. What i need is to like comfortably numb mentions is make his own. Anyway i ordered a stamped muzzle cap and the next two sizes up from what they originally sold me. 7/8 and 15/16. Depending on which fits the stock better. With a jeweler saw and some silver solder I’m going to Frankenstine the cast caps. Hopefully it will work out. Nothing like a kit with incompatible parts. Jim Kimbler if you’re out there please add a Lancaster Style rifle to your line of premium kits.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Skills are created out of desire and necessity, with generous amounts of "lessons learned" along the way.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Joe,
Making a cap is not hard. Use the tongue of wood you already cut for the cast cap as a form for a sheet brass one. Put the barrel in place, then take some paper, cut a rectangle and fold it around the stock until it touches the barrel on both sides. Trim it to make a pattern. Cut 0.04" thick brass to that pattern. Anneal the brass sheet and then bend it around your stock just like the paper pattern. Remove the barrel so you can squeeze the ends of the brass such that they will close tight on the barrel. Remove the formed brass and place the end on sheet brass, and then trace around it. Cut out the traced brass to make the front cap. Then do one of 2 things. Simply solder the front on top of the formed brass and then trim off any excess or trim the front so it fits inside the formed brass and solder it. The first method is easiest and both are authentic. Finally cut and file out the octagon profile in the front. They are not hard to make and it is kind of fun.

dave

 

[Joemolf]

Hi Joe,
Making a cap is not hard. Use the tongue of wood you already cut for the cast cap as a form for a sheet brass one. Put the barrel in place, then take some paper, cut a rectangle and fold it around the stock until it touches the barrel on both sides. Trim it to make a pattern. Cut 0.04" thick brass to that pattern. Anneal the brass sheet and then bend it around your stock just like the paper pattern. Remove the barrel so you can squeeze the ends of the brass such that they will close tight on the barrel. Remove the formed brass and place the end on sheet brass, and then trace around it. Cut out the traced brass to make the front cap. Then do one of 2 things. Simply solder the front on top of the formed brass and then trim off any excess or trim the front so it fits inside the formed brass and solder it. The first method is easiest and both are authentic. Finally cut and file out the octagon profile in the front. They are not hard to make and it is kind of fun.

dave

Dave!
You are one of my very few heroes! God Bless you!
I will give it a try actually did order a sheet of brass .065 the other day!
Respectfully
Joe

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I have a tutorial of making a sheet brass muzzle cap on the ALR. It's somewhere in my gunmaking tutorial.

 

[54ball]

Dave I just found that out!. I don’t think TOTW gave me the correct cap. The barrel is a Rice B profile at the muzzle it measures 13/16”! At the butt approximately 1 inch. Obviously different because it is swamped but the problem as you point out I’m getting to thin so I stopped. I think what I needed is a 15/16 but that is muzzle size if I am not mistaken. There’s no way the 13/16 muzzle cap will work it needs more depth. I just don’t get it with track I didn’t pick it they did almost ruined the stock. So I need a different cap and just looking none of the biven caps will work because I assume they are cut the octagon that is to fit the front of the barrel. What do you suggest? And thank you!

as it turns out TOTW doesn’t have a muzzle cap to go along with the stock kit they sold before covid. So what I got was a cap to fit the end of the barrel but not the stock. Lol some people really crack me up. What i need is to like comfortably numb mentions is make his own. Anyway i ordered a stamped muzzle cap and the next two sizes up from what they originally sold me. 7/8 and 15/16. Depending on which fits the stock better. With a jeweler saw and some silver solder I’m going to Frankenstine the cast caps. Hopefully it will work out. Nothing like a kit with incompatible parts. Jim Kimbler if you’re out there please add a Lancaster Style rifle to your line of premium kits.

Joe, maybe basic longrifle architecture needs to be considered.
Below are Tracks caps. None of them are really that bad. The cast caps are thicker and may need some work but again, none of them are that bad.
It's a little different fitting one of these vs properly making one but it's not that different. Same, same but different.
In my opinion all the caps below show good architecture or are at least historical. I really do not care for the grooved cap but that is a historical design.
The front face of the cap is always fit to the muzzle/barrel. The cap is pretty much straight.

What I'm getting at is....
The Bivins
The Leman
The Cash short and long....
are shaped correctly for an 18th Century rifle.
The grooved cap being thicker has the element of the ramrod groove rails and is more suited to later 18th early 19th Century rifles...It depends on the school.
My big problem with the grooved cap is I believe the web of wood between the barrel and ramrod groove is much too big.

The only way to "fit" one of these is at the muzzle. If it fits at the muzzle, the stock has to be fit to the cap. I think these caps are correct. If it does not fit your stock, your stock is too thick.

This is very, very tedious.
The wood under a nose cap is very, very thin. It's crazy thin but that's longrifle architecture.
Making a cap may be easier in some ways but the end result is the same if it's a properly made cap.

It's been a while for me, but I have fit pre-made caps, on a Chambers kits.

On a Pre-carve like a Track Kit......
I have Lancaster going right now I need to finish. It does have a 15/16 straight barrel. It came with the Ted Cash sheet brass, long cap pictured below. I just checked the fit with barrel. The cap is correct. It fits the barrel nicely.

Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Above are three rifles, two are originals. You can see just how thin that wood will be in under the cap.
On that Track rifle I'm going to use that sheet meatal cap to help "set" my forestock shape. What I mean is when I get to fitting cap I'll shape the wood down close, fit the cap and this will help establish the upper forestock shape.
Fitting one of these is about the most tedious aspects of a build. You are working with wood from paper thin to a maximum of 1/8" or less. Then there's laying out making sure it's not crooked, IE....rear of the cap cocked down or cocked up... It needs to be straight. The swamp is going to make little difference if any.
It's tedious.
Sharp tools, scrapers, fine files....
and do not forget the glue.

Bivins cast.....

Leman cast...

Cash, sheet metal long

Cash, sheet metal short....

Grooved for rammer....

Oh, you will probably need these. You can't work on what you can't see.

 

[ZUG]

Sounds like a good time to learn a new skill --- Forming a muzzle end cap is one of those "new" skills for you to learn.

 

[54ball]

Joe,
If you want, I can go ahead and fit that Ted Cash cap on my Track Colonial Rifle stock. I was going to do other stuff, but it won't hurt for me to go ahead fit and rivet that fore end cap. I'll make that the first priority. Let me know.
Success or disaster, I'll post the results.

 

[Joemolf]

Joe, maybe basic longrifle architecture needs to be considered.
Below are Tracks caps. None of them are really that bad. The cast caps are thicker and may need some work but again, none of them are that bad.
It's a little different fitting one of these vs properly making one but it's not that different. Same, same but different.
In my opinion all the caps below show good architecture or are at least historical. I really do not care for the grooved cap but that is a historical design.
The front face of the cap is always fit to the muzzle/barrel. The cap is pretty much straight.

What I'm getting at is....
The Bivins
The Leman
The Cash short and long....
are shaped correctly for an 18th Century rifle.
The grooved cap being thicker has the element of the ramrod groove rails and is more suited to later 18th early 19th Century rifles...It depends on the school.
My big problem with the grooved cap is I believe the web of wood between the barrel and ramrod groove is much too big.

The only way to "fit" one of these is at the muzzle. If it fits at the muzzle, the stock has to be fit to the cap. I think these caps are correct. If it does not fit your stock, your stock is too thick.

This is very, very tedious.
The wood under a nose cap is very, very thin. It's crazy thin but that's longrifle architecture.
Making a cap may be easier in some ways but the end result is the same if it's a properly made cap.

It's been a while for me, but I have fit pre-made caps, on a Chambers kits.

On a Pre-carve like a Track Kit......
I have Lancaster going right now I need to finish. It does have a 15/16 straight barrel. It came with the Ted Cash sheet brass, long cap pictured below. I just checked the fit with barrel. The cap is correct. It fits the barrel nicely.

View attachment 248383
View attachment 248384
Untitled by Travis Brown, on Flickr
Above are three rifles, two are originals. You can see just how thin that wood will be in under the cap.
On that Track rifle I'm going to use that sheet meatal cap to help "set" my forestock shape. What I mean is when I get to fitting cap I'll shape the wood down close, fit the cap and this will help establish the upper forestock shape.
Fitting one of these is about the most tedious aspects of a build. You are working with wood from paper thin to a maximum of 1/8" or less. Then there's laying out making sure it's not crooked, IE....rear of the cap cocked down or cocked up... It needs to be straight. The swamp is going to make little difference if any.
It's tedious.
Sharp tools, scrapers, fine files....
and do not forget the glue.


View attachment 248375
Bivins cast.....
View attachment 248376
Leman cast...
View attachment 248377
Cash, sheet metal long
View attachment 248378
Cash, sheet metal short....
View attachment 248379
Grooved for rammer....

View attachment 248393
Oh, you will probably need these. You can't work on what you can't see.

Great info thanks for responding.
So the problem is the barrel stock combination. I purchased the Lancaster stock that takes a B profile barrel. I should have gotten the C profile barrel which as you noted it 15/16 at the muzzle. I actually have a finished transition Lancaster that is configured that way. The muzzle cap is much wider and that is what I need only so to fit a 13/16 barrel. TOTW confirmed this is a problem the builder has to deal with. I’m down to about 3/32 which is too thin. I will follow up with some pictures so you can see this. You really should not be less than an 1/8 from what other have said and obviously the reason it will probably snap off if bumped. So that is not to say a muzzle cap doesn’t exist for the configuration. There are other nice manufacturers out there that sell the transition Lancaster with all the furniture. The Bivens 13/16 cap is meant to be used on a 13/16 straight barrel. The 15/16 I ordered that will need modifications will fit the stock but obviously not my B profile Swamp barrel. Had I purchased the stock pre inlet for the C profile barrel I would not have a problem. larger as is the stock (thickness). I should have the cap’s today I will take some pictures to show you what I was dealing with. For the configuration of barrel and stock I have a muzzle cap needs to be fabricated Track confirmed this. It one of the reasons I I am annoyed with them. They listed the cap as associated part knowing it won’t fit. I ll try to get some pics up this evening! Thank you for all the good info.

 

[Joemolf]

What I'm getting at is....
The Bivins
The Leman
The Cash short and long....
are shaped correctly for an 18th Century rifle.

The only way to "fit" one of these is at the muzzle. If it fits at the muzzle, the stock has to be fit to the cap. I think these caps are correct. If it does not fit your stock, your stock is too thick

Okay so right off my stock is now to thin and i will be using epoxy to fill the void. The correct biven muzzle cap for a b profile stock and barrel is 7/8 according Dunlop Wood Craft who cut these stocks and sell the hardware to complete them. Only instead of supplying a 13/16 diameter muzzle cap they supply a 7/8 and they stated they have never had a complaint as where Track said they are aware the 13/16 won’t work though when they had an associated parts list that is what was listed. So if you have a C profile you get a perfect fit the B profile close but not perfect I’m going to have a gap though I am going to fabricate my own as Dave and comfortably numb suggest.
As you might be able to tell though difficult hard to see the 13/16 cap is two narrow. Id have less than a 16 and I believe Dave pointed this out. Each biven cap offered increases not only in the barrel size hex but the width. Track confirmed this with me this past Friday. I included two pics of my c profile cap installation. Still waiting on FedEx

 

[Joemolf]

Success! The Biven no. 14 cap did it. Even better it’s closer to the muzzle end. I got a good fit and though I used a small amount of epoxy I didn’t really need it but decided to use it. I just need to peen the top of the cap to the barrel and it will be perfect IMO. The plans call for a 5/32 copper rivet or a tiny steel screw to secure the cap. My Mike Compton Transition Lancaster does not use either. It took me about two hours to chisel it back into the stock i am happy with the fit. Now to facet from the ramrod channel back to the index line taken from the muzzle cap. Joy! I joined American Long Rifle yesterday Comfortably Numb has instructions there for making Muzzle Caps as he noted. I’m happy I didn’t have to go that route as I’m still waiting on the sheet brass to arrive I hate waiting. LOL. I attached a few pictures yes I need to clean up the bench! Thank you all for sharing your great advice!.