Big bore matchlock & recoil

[Moloch]

I actually didnt want to start an extra thread just for this one question, but I couldnt find an answer using the search function; sorry.

A gun shop has a special offer of a Pedersoli matchlock, cal.~76 (20mm), instead of 720 it now costs 450 bucks (€) which is IMO a good deal for a med. quality matchlock.
Christmas is close you know.... :wink:
Well, I ran the numbers and a round ball of this cal. is about 670 grain/1.5 ounce heavy, and the historical powder charges of late matchlocks were in the 80-100 grain musket powder area.
The gun weighs 9 pounds. With a velocity of 1300 fp/s this gives recoil of about 50 ft/lbs. :shocked2:
I am not small framed but thats over 4 times the recoil of a .308 in a light rifle.

Is recoil really that bad with large caliber matchlocks?
How did the small people back then withstand the recoil?

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

You do not have to use the old military load. Crank the powder back until it feels good to you.
Plus the powder back then was not as refined as it is today. With matchlocks we are talking about
1500 - 1600 perhaps earlier. So a 60 to 80 grain
load of 3F powder should be close to the original loading.

I would advise to get the matchlock!!

Is it one of the big European types with the sear leaver?

 

[Moloch]

Stupid me, my calculation is flawed. :redface: Its 12gauge not 20mm. Thats about .73. That gives 575 grain ball weight with patch. Thats still plenty of weight though.

Honestly I dont know much about matchlocks, from the looks it may be a repro of a 30-years war matchlock, it does not have the lever like the older ones.

Heres the model I am talking about, its the italian from davide pedersoli.

I am talking about the military load because I want to keep as traditional as possible, I am not looking for the most accurate target load.
Back than 100 grain was often used so I think 80 of modern black 2Fg would give similar energy.

450 sounds like a good deal for me. What somewhat bothers me is that the barrel appears to be VERY thin at the chamber. :hmm:
It may not be very fancy and its rather plain looking, but thats pretty close to military standarts.

 

[wulf]

I shoot a Bess with 80 gr ffg. Thats a 75 cal. 11
guage musket. Kick is medium. Black powder shoves
where as smoke less "kicks", I have even double
loaded mine and survived..I would be concerned
about a thin breech area tho..I also have a 62 cal
matcher in a 1" barrel with a breech plug 3/4 X
16 and that don't leave a very thick wall either
but is commonly accepted. Wulf

 

[mr.fudd]

Recoil shouldn't be bad. I also shoot a Brown Bess and even with a .735" RB and 90 grains of FFg it's not particularly punishing to shoot. I'd compare a .735" ball over 80 grains of FFg to a modern 12 gauge shotgun shooting light loads. The most I've loaded so far has been 100 grains, but even that didn't feel quite like a magnum load in a 12 gauge. The recoil is probably heavier than a .308, but I find it much less punishing since it doesn't seem so abrupt and sharp. It's more like a big slow heavy push whereas a centerfire rifle feels like someone gave you a quick whack with a stick.

 

[mckutzy]

where abouts did u get this data from in regard to the velocity. back in the day the powder was different as i recall, a mixed powder called sepentine powder, was about half as powerful as it is today. now i have a Ped. bess and with 80gr of 2f goex, not really that much of a recoil to speak of, i feel it ya, but i could shoot it all day and have.

i would get it if could afford it. that match sounds cool. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Teleoceras]

Moloch:

One thing I should note is that those fishtail buttstocks were great for spreading out recoil. The butt is wider than the later arms. I prefer the fishtail style when it is possible to get one.

BTW, When did Pedersoli make a Matchlock?

Slowmatch Forever!
Teleoceras

 

[Many Klatch]

Moloch, don't forget the quoted 100 grain charge may include the powder that you put into the pan. I shoot 90 grains of 2F out of my Bess with no pain at all. That is a load that is 90 grains down the spout and another two or three or five grains in the pan.

The blackpowder recoil will push you back while smokeless powder slams you back. It's like the difference between being hit with a sandbag versus a sledge hammer.

Many Klatch

 

[Moloch]

Hmm, I often hear that blackpowder just ''pushes''. My rifled Musket which shoot 735 grain conicals with 75 grain of 3FG powder kicks the hell out of me, no way that this rifle is pushing. :shocked2:
I shoot a small SxS coach shotgun with magnum slugs and its more of a shove than this thing.

As far as I know Pedersoli made only a small batch of matchlocks, and the people over the big pond dont shoot matchlocks at all, thats why its price went down by whuppin 300 bucks! :thumbsup:

What do you think, is 450 a good deal?

One thing I should note is that those fishtail buttstocks were great for spreading out recoil.

Yes, seems to have a lot more surface than the regular buttplates. And it looks good too.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

I had one almost like this one excepy it had the long curving sear leaver with no triger guard. These things were not shot offhand as we do today.
If you are going to be historically correct you will need to obtain a " shooting stick " There are a couple mentioned and shown on this forum.
If you are thinking about getting into matchlock
shooting I would jump on this bargan. For that price it would still be good to shoot it ever so often and let it hang on your wall the rest of the year. I used to take mine to a local shooting match. The fellows who put on the shoot loved to shoot my big matchlock! Toward the end of the shoot I would load it up and the range officers would line up to shoot it. ( the brave ones ) I never used the shooting stick.
I would recomend you reading through all of the older posts on matchlocks. This forum is the best source of knowledge to be found.

If I found this deal...it would be in my vault right now!!

:thumbsup:

 

[Leonredbeard]

go for it, Moloch!
My 'Livey Bounce' weighs a mere seven and a half pounds. I have loaded up 100 grs. of 2fg and 300 grain .590 inch ball. It kicks pretty sharply, but I don't mind. I have also shot 100 grs 2fg in twelve gauge smoothbores that didn't weigh any more and have not minded it. So enjoy. It is a real hoot to shoot a matchlock!
volatpluvia

 

[mr.fudd]

Hmm, I often hear that blackpowder just ''pushes''. My rifled Musket which shoot 735 grain conicals with 75 grain of 3FG powder kicks the hell out of me, no way that this rifle is pushing. :shocked2:
I shoot a small SxS coach shotgun with magnum slugs and its more of a shove than this thing.

As far as I know Pedersoli made only a small batch of matchlocks, and the people over the big pond dont shoot matchlocks at all, thats why its price went down by whuppin 300 bucks! :thumbsup:

What do you think, is 450 a good deal?

One thing I should note is that those fishtail buttstocks were great for spreading out recoil.

Yes, seems to have a lot more surface than the regular buttplates. And it looks good too.

I don't think the main difference is between smokeless and BP, I think it's between a large caliber, low pressure, low velocity weapon and a small caliber, high pressure, high velocity weapon. If you compare the recoil figures from a modern 12 gauge shotgun with that of a 30-06 or similar rifle, the shotgun appears to have greater recoil, however I find that the rifle sure seems to be a lot more punishing. I don't find the recoil from black powder weapons to be significantly different from that of modern shotguns, but I definitely prefer it to the recoil of a modern rifle.

If you think your shotgun kicks hard, then you will probably also think the matchlock will kick hard. There are some ways to minimize felt recoil however. You probably already know this, but if you hold the stock tightly to your shoulder, stiffen up your grip on the stock itself to also absorb the recoil with your arms and try to fire using an upright posture so that you can roll with the recoil, rather than hunched over like you would be in the prone or from the bench it will make the recoil much more manageable.

I personally don't go for the really tight hold myself as I would rather deal with a little more felt recoil than muscle the weapon and affect the shot, but I understand the guys that shoot the real bruisers do it. I still pull it firmly into my shoulder, but I try to just use my left hand to support and aim with.

 

[logan]

What type or model of matchlock would have been used by the Pilrims?

 

[bioprof]

What type or model of matchlock would have been used by the Pilrims?

I have seen a reference to a relict Italian matchlock (probably not a Pedersoli - lol) in one museum, but most references do not mention the country of origin of the matchlocks used by the pilgrims. The stocks probably aren't preserved very well. Here's one article with some pictures of relict locks:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16277/16277-h/16277-h.htm#muskets

 

[robinghewitt]

Its 12gauge not 20mm. Thats about .73. That gives 575 grain ball weight with patch.

575 gns at 1300 ft/s is 2158 ft.lbf

If the gun weighed 12 lbs it would end up moving backwards at 8.9 ft/s and expect you to stop it.

Are you sure you'd get 1300 ft/s though? :hmm:

 

[Moloch]

Somewhere I've read that a Bess musket ball goes supersonic with about 100 grain of 2FG, and its a bit heavier. I think something in the 1300 area could be possible.... I dont have chronoed such a musket though... :hmm:

Almost 9fp/s is some serious knockin', but the gun weighs 9 pounds! :shocked2:
And I mostly shoot my rifles from the bench....

 

[robinghewitt]

Almost 9fp/s is some serious knockin', but the gun weighs 9 pounds! :shocked2:

Make that 11.8 ft/s then, 8 mph :thumbsup: