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Black pdwr 'n fake black pdwr

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Davemuzz

45 Cal.
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
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I am going to try shooting sabot's out of my T\C 50 cal Hawken 1-48 twist barrel. I have some Hornady 44 mag bullets in 240 grain and 300 grain XTP's (I also have 180 grain but I think these may be too light---but I load these for my 44 mag).

Now, I have always shot "real black powder" from my smoke poles as my "poles" are flint-locks and the fake stuff seems to have a tough time with ignition...this is an observation from watchin my buddies.

So, I thought I read somewhere (maybe on this forum) that a very reliable ignition method for the fake stuff was to use 10 grains of the real stuff, followed by the balance of "X" grains of the fake stuff.

It is my understanding that this will help cut down the barrel fouling.

So, did I dream this...or think it up all by myself on a bar stool last weekend...late at night? :nono:

Thanks.

Dave.
 
Save yourself all that duplex load fuss; stick with the real stuff. The fake stuff fouls just the same.
 
Your observation is correct. The fake stuff is harder to ignite than the real stuff. Using a 'booster' charge under the fake stuff is an option but doesnt seem to me to make enough of a differcne when cleaning to be worth the added complication. Just my opinion, others may differ.

I think the only thing you thought up on a barstool late at night is putting plastic down the bore of your gun. Whiskey makes people do all kinds of strange things. :grin:
 
Given a choice, stick with the real deal. There are places such as where I live where you can only get Pyro and such, so you have to make do it. But when available the original is better. Given my choice of using fake or not shooting I go with the fake, but that's not because I want to.
 
If you are using the traditional actions such as a flintlock or side lock, I'd stick with the original black powder. The substitutes work better with an inline action.

The problem with black powder is that it can be hard to find. Here in Massachusetts, I know of only one shop that carries it and in this state you need to have a powder permit. Lovely state this is.

Many shooters go over the line to other New England states and buy it with no questions asked.
 
How'd you know my favorite drink?

Actually, I got 2 smoke poles :grin: my orginal that I bot in 1979, that last year I replaced the barrel with a GM roundball twist.

So, I had the orginal barrel kind of hangin around...and I had a set of triggers on the peg board wall....so....I sleezed-bayed it until I picked up a stock with a tang, then found a fellow on this forum that sold me a lock....and wha-la.....$100 later I had another gun.

My orginal barrel shot OK with 60gr of Goex ff and a round ball. But I can now just fool around with "other stuff" with it.[url] Yup....jammin[/url] plastic stuff with jacketed bullets....and even non-jacketed bullets....just for fun. The world is my oyster!!!! Well, maybe not, but my GM barrel shoots 90 gr of ff with a patched RB at 100 yards very consistenly and I am as happy as a pig in mud with that purchase.

So, with gun #2, I'm going to go where no man has gone before. Well....that's a line of BS, but I'm going to putz with stuff that I otherwise just wouldn't have done. I don't know why.....but I'm going to now. :youcrazy:
 
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Flintlocks are designed to function using real black powder. The only substitute that can be used in Flintlocks and works is the Goex Pinnacle powder, which has a much lower flashpoint than the other subs, like Pyrodex. Anyone can order Black Powder from one of the suppliers listed in the links and have it delivered to their homes, usually much cheaper than the cost of the subs.

I can't imagine you wanting to shoot a saboted .44 pistol bullet in a flintlock! That .50 cal. gun will take game with a PRB- certainly any deer you are every like to see. The PRB weighs in at 180 grains, and mushrooms on impact making a hole that is much larger than 60 caliber on most deer. At any distance under 100 yards, it is likely to completely penetrate a deer, leaving a massive primary wound channel, and blood spurting out of both sides of the animal. You can buy short conicals, including the maxi-balls sold by T/C, to shoot in that gun, if you are using it to hunt Elk, Moose, Caribou, or bear, but you won't need anything like a 300 grain bullet in .44 cal. to kill anything with that gun.

I know all the guys are talking about taking 200 yards shots, and I suppose if you are allowed to put modern variable powered scopes on your smokepole in your state, you might get such a shot, and you might just hit the deer. However, even using pistol bullets, the trajectory at those ranges is pretty steep- ie. the bullet is dropping very fast- so unless you have the time to put a laser range finder on the target to tell you exactly how many yards away that deer is, a miss is just as likely with those pistol bullets as with a round ball.

You would have to spend many hours at a range shooting from different positions to simulate hunting conditions before you will have any confidence of making such a long shot! Remember, 200 yards is 600 feet, and that is a long way in anybody's book. Even a high powered scope is not going to show you blades of grass, twigs, small saplings growing between you and that deer's vital area. At 200 yds, the best settings on a scope still leave a pretty wide set of cross hairs, which cover up a lot of the target, and a lot of stuff in between you and the deer.

Those are just some of the reasons those of us who choose to hunt with flintlocks pass on those kinds of shots. It is much more important to get close, and much more satisfying when you do get close and successfully kill the deer with a traditional flintlock.

You are not going to make a .50 cal. T/C Hawkin into a magnum deer rifle, using sbots, and pistol bullets, of any weight- it is already a " Magnum " deer rifle, within the range it was designed to shoot with open sights. The vast majority of deer are still killed at under 50 yards, as the comments made here in the forum by members reporting on their kills will attest. ANy deer killed with a flintlock is a trophy. Once in a blue moon, a hunter with a traditional gun is in the right place at the right time, and is able to kill a Boone and Crockett record book buck. It happens about as often as that kind of thing happens to other deer hunters.

You have to have better things to think about sitting on a bar stool, than trying to make something out of a traditional gun that it isn't. Aren't here any women in the bar?

Good Hunting.
 
I have used real black powder (Goex), pyrodex, Clean shot powder, and 777, and it doesn't seem to make a difference to me in the time it takes to clean the barrel. Actually, with soap and water, black powder seems to be easier to clean up than many of the substitutes.
 
I'm not interested in making this gun a 200 yard game getter. I have guns that will do that.

What I want to do is have this barrel obtain consistent groupings at 100 yards. What are consistent groups? Well, give me 8" groups...the kill zone, with 90 grains of powder, with this barrel, and that would be a good thing.

I have shot this barrel since 1979, and 60 grains of Goex ff with a .495 patched RB is going to give you the best pattern your gonna get. Well,,,that is until I go out a fool around and invest time, energy, "other stuff" that wasn't around in 1979 (and stuff that has marketed since then I havn't had the time to fool with).

If I jam a '64 Ford rusty fender pieces down this barrel and it gives me those consistent groups...I may just market that! :rotf:

Dave.
 
As my username implies,I use Pyrodex all of the time and as long as I use CCI#11 or remington #11 caps i get reliable ignition.Good caps=Good ignition!
 
I keep trying those caps....but for some reason they keep bouncin out of my frizzin pan. :rotf:
 
Davemuzz said:
I keep trying those caps....but for some reason they keep bouncin out of my frizzin pan. :rotf:


:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

I haven't tried Pyrodex in my flinter and doubt if I ever will. I use it occasionally in my percussion guns though and it fouls just as bad, only it's not as easy to clean out afterwards. It's always fun to experiment just to see what happens, but like most experiments (at least the ones I do), I doubt it's going to end up being worth the trouble. LOL
 
Maybe you were remembering these tests posted by Herb?
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/195062/post/288649/hl//#288649[/url]

And this thread:
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/198733/post/322186/hl//#322186[/url]

The 255 grain TC .45 Maxi Hunter has the potential to shoot fairly well out of a 1 in 48" twist at 50 yards using a .50 sabot designed for .45 bullets, but I never tried to shoot one out to 100 yards.
 
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Dave,
I use pyrodex in my .50 T/C Hawken (I wasn't able to track down the real stuff until after I joined MLF, after purchasing the pyro). I have never had problems with ignition. I attribute this to heeding the consistent MLF admonishments to keep the nipple & channel clean.
bramble
 
I tryed 4 times to get my first flint to go off yesterday after a day at the ER had to pull the screw out ck for powder, it ws fine so I added just a small pinch of 4f and put the screw and everything together and Boom. Cking the flask Id put 777 in it, it dont like that. :rotf: Fred :hatsoff:
 
From what I have read, 777 has a high flashpoint, and it is next to impossible to ignite it with sparks from a flint and steel. At least you found out what the problem was. That lesson, so hard won, will stick with you, and anyone around you for the rest of your life. We all have a list of those lessons we learned the same way! The real trick is getting us to tell you about all of them.

Good Shooting.
 
"The real trick is getting us to tell you about all of them." Very true. I picked up the flask with the 32 cal Rem (the real smal one) only holds 10grs, well ya learn the hard way somedays. Fred :hatsoff:
 
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