Black powder gunsmithing

[44-henry]

$50-$100,000? Seems like a lot for a guy that just wants to get started in his basement shop and only wants to use hand tools. Of course I suppose you might have been acounting for the cost of the house in the deal.

 

[CaptainKirk]

I'm pretty sure there was a little tongue-in-cheek action going on there. :wink:

 

[CaptainKirk]

So, in the days before Bridgeport mills and stock milling machines, Dremel tools and diamond cutting wheels, how did these guys turn out such excellent pieces of work? I mean, built in a log cabin down by the crick, and all? With ornery Shawnee peeking in through the oilskin windows?
That's what I intend to find out, if I can....

 

[justafeedboy]

Jim Chambers offers a couple of classes once a year, I believe one is building, the other is engraving and stock work. I've never attended one but if time permits I wouldn't mind learning from him.

 

[jerrywh]

The New American Machinist's Handbook
(ISBN: 0070370656 / 0-07-037065-6 )
Grand, Rupert Le (Editor)

Blacksmithing and Decorative Metal Working
Ludwig, Oswald

ART OF BLACKSMITHING
Bealer, Alex W.
If you get a chance go to the gunmakers fairs. There is one in almost every state.
Join the American firearms engraver Guild. It only cost $50.00 a year. you will get $100 worth of magazines for it that are unequaled.

 

[ohio ramrod]

They did it with a lot of skill! I am constantly amazed at what some people can do with a hammer and chisel while I use bridge ports, lathes and dremel's. :hmm: :hmm:

 

[jerrywh]

"built in a log cabin down by the crick, and all? With ornery Shawnee peeking in through the oilskin windows?"
Answer is they usually didn't. Most of them had a lot better equipment then you think. No electric motors but water wheel powered lathes, Drill presses,grinders and slave power. They were also very good with what they had. Almost anything that can be done on a milling machine can be done with chisels. It just takes longer. also wrought iron is easier to work than mild steel. The biggest advantage was they had no TV or video games. When they were 7 years old they were helping make guns or learning some other trade. The vision most people have of Jacob Dickert is all wrong. You can't make three hundred muskets with a stone hammer and a bent nail. There were 594,000 people in rural penn in 1800.

 

[joeboleo1]

Thank you for the information on the books, I will check on them today. I didn't realize what you receive with the Engravers membership --- definitely looking into that, sounds VERY worthwhile. Thanks again.

 

[matt denison]

"The biggest advantage was they had no TV or video games. When they were 7 years old they were helping make guns or learning some other trade"

Bingo! They started learning a trade very young, didn't have the distractions or entitlement mentality. You learned to chop wood and haul water and feed critters and harness the team as soon as you were old enough to dress yourself. You were learning practical experience, learning work ethic right off. Also you'd get your a** beat by the boss if you screwed up so learn to do it right or else. Real gunshops had tools, apprentices and employees and often farmed out ceertain types of work like engraving and/or carving. Much more sophisticated than the image of a little old man working in the dark all by himself.

 

[matt denison]

$50,000 over the course of time will be a fair estimate if he really wants to be GUNSMITH. He said gunsmith, not just a guy buildiing a gun or two now and then.

When you are working other peoples guns you can't imagine the type of stuff you'll need to work on. Have you ever had to make a new tumbler or fabricate a spring for a gun no longer in production? A guy breaks the cock on a non commercial lock, ya' gotta either fix it or make a replacement. You'll be thankful for every tool you have and daydream of getting more/better ones.

Then there are "expendables" like drill bits and endmill bits, sanding belts, taps. I swear that every time I call MSC it costs me $3-400.00 for stuff that wears out and you eventually throw away. Through necessity I have gotten pretty good at sharpening my own mill bits. Ever sharpen a four flute center cutting mill end bit? Better learn 'cause it will save you about $36.00 for a new cheap one. Just another skill that you pick up and as jerry has said, don't be afraid to try things. You'll be suprised at what you can do if you give it a good try.

 

[44-henry]

I've done all the things you mention and also have a lot of experience purchasing tools as I have been responsible for the equipment that we have in our university laboratory. I also have a fairly well equipped shop in my basement for both wood and metal, but I didn't spend $50,000 equipping it nor do I feel that I am lacking in any particular area. I think it really depends on what a guy wants to do and when you have that in mind there are some options for acquiring equipment, some more expensive than others.

 

[hoochiepapa]

I don't mean to sabotage this thread, Jerry, but I met a guy last week that does engraving, and has the equipment to do air engraving, and was complaining that he couldn't get back his labor in projects. I had to laugh, because my wife and I did silver and turquoise jewelry back in the day, and I learned right then that getting your labor back is a pipe dream. We spent many hours making the jewelry and were lucky to get back our cost. People want something for nothing. :idunno:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Forget it. I started building ML's when I was 23. I'm now 53. Been at this full time now for 14 years. I have built nearly 300 guns. I'd call my self a "gun stocker" rather than a "gun smith".
The competition for work is tough, everybody and their brother has been taught how to build ML's in the past few decades with all the schools and seminars that have been put on...not many people are will ing to pay you a living wage to build them a gun as their buddy will do it for them for beer money...might not be pretty, but it's free. :haha:
There are two things you need to be to make it. Fast and good. Most are neither, some are one and some are the other. Fast folks tend to turn out sloppy work that isn't worth having. Good folks can't make more than a couple bucks an hour.
I'd stick with Jap bikes......

 

[jerrywh]

Well I just happen to be in an exclusive part of antique gun making. I don't build any long rifles anymore unless it's just for my self or sort of a gift. There’s not enough money in them. I only build European high art stuff. Strictly one of a kind museum quality. I only did two commissions in my life. I will never do another one. I build what I want, when I want, and how I want and then sell them. I take them to where the big money guys go like Reno or Vegas. The good ones usually never last past the first show. I make all my own castings and patterns [one of a kind] Go to any expense to make them perfect and no matter what it cost or how long it takes. If I told you what the sold for you would either think I was lying or bragging. I had three successful businesses I my life and I make more now part time Than I ever did working. I work Three to four hours a day when I feel like it.
Remember this - Billionaires don’t care what something cost . All that matters is if they want it or not. They don’t want something that everybody else has . They want something real special that others don’t have and probably can’t get. It’s an ego thing. You would be surprised how many billionaires and multi millionaires there are. My dad always told me “ you can’t make money off of somebody who doesn’t have any. Most gun makers are trying to compete with CVA. Thompson Center, Lyman, and Pedersoli. That games is lost before the kickoff. Basically I have no competition. It took me 50 years to get to this point.
I’m about worn out.
If I had it to do over I would be a lawyer and do this for fun. Doing this for money will ruin your hobby.
I still love the engraving. The gold work and the carving.

 

[CaptainKirk]

My dad always told me “ You can’t make money off of somebody who doesn’t have any." :rotf: :rotf:

Man, Jerry, you're killin' me... :rotf:
A wise man, your dad. This has been my problem throughout my career...(Jap bikes included!)

I admit, at this point, the prognosis does not look good. Really, I don't care...I'll attempt to learn it just because. I've already got a job (two, actually)
If it works out; great! If not....I'll be able to build a he!! of a kit gun...no? :grin:

 

[jerrywh]

 

[Xtramad]

I build what I want, when I want, and how I want and then sell them.

That is the best way to work. :thumbsup:

 

[CaptainKirk]

Outstanding!
How long did that take to create, Jerry?

 

[jerrywh]

I did this lock for a very good friend. It took about three weeks. This whole gun will be at the CLA show probably in 2012. The gun is worth at least $135,000.00 in my opinion. This gun is jewelry from end to end.

 

[CaptainKirk]

I did this lock for a very good friend.
The gun is worth at least $135,000.00 in my opinion.

:shocked2:

Where does one find friends like that?

Both "good" and "wealthy"! What a combination! :thumbsup:

Your craftsmanship is unbelievable! :grin: