Black Powder questions

[ballandcap]

I did some searches first and didn't find my answers I was after. I am sure this has been asked before so I apologize if it is redundant.

I am looking to order some black powder 5 lbs. for starters. I have heard a lot of Goex and was going to get some FFG for the bore and FFFG for the pan. I had a gentleman recently reccomend 1.5FG Swiss saying it was much cleaner burning, and his favorite Swiss Granulation. It is a little more than Goex but is it worth it?

Also I was going to get FFFG initially for the pan but they say FFFFG and the Null-B Granulations are for the pans. There is 1 place local I have found so far that has B.P. on hand currently. They have FFG and FFFG and is Graf and sons Powder. They said it is cleaner than Goex.


My questions are,

1. Anyone have any experience with Graf and Sons?

2. Do diff. B.P. Manufacturers really differ that much?

3. What is the preferred Powder of shooters here and why? Cleaner, more accurate? I'd love both but accuracy is most important.

4. Does granulation size differ between manufactures like Swiss with the 1.5FG and NUllB? Or is FFG... FFG, period?

5. Where is the best and most cost effective place to buy the above powder 5 lbs at a time? Unfortunately money is a BIG issue currently and want to shoot.

I have seen T.O.W. and price is fair but not the least, especially for having to order 25 lbs. at a time. Another is below but price not listed and kind of annoys me when trying to compare. They are open when I am working and closed when I can call.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,392.html

Another
http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm

I am looking forward to evolving with flintlocks and real B.P.
Thanks for the help and responses as always!

 

[paulvallandigham]

Go to the thread here on Accesories. McKeal has posted a couple of charts outlining the cost per lb of black powder, from various distributors, around the USA. There are several suppliers who will sell less than case lots( 25 lbs.) and give you some discount. There is a separate, ADDITIONAL Hazardous Materials fee that must be paid on every shipment, and you are limited to ordering 50 lbs for one shipment. Percussion caps also are hit with the Haz Mat fee, so it pays to make a larger order of caps, too. Graf&Sons, Powder Inc, Maine Powder House, Jerry's Powder Keg are just some of the distributors who will reduce the price on these powders when you buy a minumum order of 4 or 5 lbs. Case Price is the lowest for all of them.

As to Swiss Powder; Its way more expensive than GOEX. It does burn a little faster, and that seems to be its main attraction. People say its cleaner than Goex, but if you clean after each shot, that fact is irrelevant. Doing tests to compare Goex and Swiss powders, my brother found that if an OP wad was used with both powders, they both burned as clean as each other. The difference in velocity favoring the Swiss powder was less than 10%. If he greased his barrel after seating his PRB on both powders, his velocity rose, but his SDV dropped so that the two powders were fairly close. He still uses it in target shooting matches( Swiss powder), but uses Goex for all his practicing, and for all other kinds of shooting. The expense of the Swiss powder over Goex just can't be justified by the limited benefit in velocity, and cleanliness, IMHO.

I hope this helps.

 

[ballandcap]

Thank you for your info Paul. I was just checking in the accs. Forum and it looks like I can answer most of my questions there. Sorry, looks like this was the wrong section to post in for Powder, don't spend the time on here I need to.

 

[jethro224]

There ya go. It's in the right section now. Might even get more answers here.

I've purchased Goex from www.grafs.com and had good service. They sell small lots. I have not tried their own brand of powder but have heard good things about it.

Is this your first flintlock? Have you fired it yet? What caliber is it?
You'll have to try both 2F and 3F in your gun to find out which will give the most accurate load. You might just pick up a can of 3F at your local vendor to get started. One powder will do it all. You can use the 3F in both the barrel and the pan and do some shooting.
I bought a can of 4F when I started shooting flint and barely used any. Maybe 80 grains. I'll probably die with the same can of 4F in my powder box unless I find somebody to trade it to for some 2 or 3F.

 

[ballandcap]

I have a .50 cal Thompson Renegade that I have yet to fire (bought on gunbroker and didn't realize it had the QLA and only wanted to shoot PRB's) and a custom .45 flinter on the way. Bought an old Jukar .45 flinter pistol a couple years ago and shot Pyodex through it and when it did fire it was delayed big time and assumed it was the gun, probably just the powder the more I learn and read.

 

[jethro224]

Yep, I'd buy a can of that 3F Grafs and go shootin'. :thumbsup: It should work fine for both charge and prime in that .50 and both of the others too.

The Jukars aren't known as top quality but they definitely won't do their best using substitute powders. That thing just might shoot.

 

[MikeChapin]

I did some searches first and didn't find my answers I was after. I am sure this has been asked before so I apologize if it is redundant.

I am looking to order some black powder 5 lbs. for starters. I have heard a lot of Goex and was going to get some FFG for the bore and FFFG for the pan. I had a gentleman recently reccomend 1.5FG Swiss saying it was much cleaner burning, and his favorite Swiss Granulation. It is a little more than Goex but is it worth it?

Also I was going to get FFFG initially for the pan but they say FFFFG and the Null-B Granulations are for the pans. There is 1 place local I have found so far that has B.P. on hand currently. They have FFG and FFFG and is Graf and sons Powder. They said it is cleaner than Goex.

Graf and Sons powder is made by Wano, the same people who make Shuetzen. I haven't tried Graf's but the Shuetzen I have used is not that much different than GOEX.

I use 3F in everything from .32 to .58. I notice the difference between 4F and 3F for priming but many people use 3F for both priming and the main charge and like it. Try it out and see if it works for you.

My questions are,

2. Do diff. B.P. Manufacturers really differ that much?

3. What is the preferred Powder of shooters here and why? Cleaner, more accurate? I'd love both but accuracy is most important.

They differ a little. Swiss is the hottest powder but the most expensive. GOEX is a good quality powder and probably used by most people here. Graf's and Shuetzen are used by a lot of people and burn about the same as GOEX. KIK is a poor man's Swiss. It is a little hotter than GOEX and burns a little cleaner. I jump back and forth between GOEX and KIK depending upon what price I can get at the time.

The only real bad powder I know about is Elephant. It has a lot less power and really gunks up the gun it is used in. It had not been made in a while but there is still some floating around.

5. Where is the best and most cost effective place to buy the above powder 5 lbs at a time? Unfortunately money is a BIG issue currently and want to shoot.

I have seen T.O.W. and price is fair but not the least, especially for having to order 25 lbs. at a time. Another is below but price not listed and kind of annoys me when trying to compare. They are open when I am working and closed when I can call.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,392.html

Another
http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm

I am looking forward to evolving with flintlocks and real B.P.
Thanks for the help and responses as always!

I have gone through Powder Inc., your second link. Service has been great and you can order as little as 5 pounds and mix the granulation on the order if you wish.

No matter what powder you settle on, you will still have to work up the most accurate load, powder/patch/ball for your rifle.

I would say get the Graf's and start shooting. You can always experiment with others later if the spirit moves you.

 

[marwat06]

I have a .50 cal Thompson Renegade that I have yet to fire (bought on gunbroker and didn't realize it had the QLA and only wanted to shoot PRB's)

I have a T/C .50, 1:48 with QLA and have no problems shooting PRBs.

 

[ballandcap]

I have a .50 cal Thompson Renegade that I have yet to fire (bought on gunbroker and didn't realize it had the QLA and only wanted to shoot PRB's)

I have a T/C .50, 1:48 with QLA and have no problems shooting PRBs.

I know it will shoot it, I was concerned about an already short barrel on the renegade and losing an 1-1/2 or so of rifling, but biggest worry is a crooked patch and not being able to thumb start like I can when the prb sits on top of rifling until I am ready to push it down. Basically I don't want any trouble or extra time in a hunting situation, maybe I am wrong because I haven't had it out yet?

 

[Dphar]

I shoot Swiss exclusively. It is cleaner. But limit charges to about 75 for 50 cal and 90-100 for 54-58. Heavier charges can cause an increase in fouling since this powder has a slightly higher flame temp and above a certain temperature fouling increases greatly. But 90 gr of fff in my 54 is a very fast load and I only stumbled onto the problem when proofing a test firing a customers 58 caliber.
Several friends use 1.5f in RB guns with *very* good results.
I would likely compromise and use FFG. I shoot fff in my 50 for hunting right now but load development is ongoing and may end up with ff swiss since I have a lot of it and it is very close to 1.5 in velocity in most rb guns.

Dan