black powder

[Flintleather]

Has anyone found it necessary to pay the extra expense of Swiss or Elephant black powder? I have always used Dupont/Goex and never felt the need to pay more for the others.Now if i can get greater accuracy or less fouling maybe i'll part with my hard earned cash! Any thoughts or experiences would be greatly appreciated.

 

[jrdavis]

Well Swiss is hotter so you use less, it also burns cleaner=
less crud in the barrel :m2c:

 

[roundball]

I had a bad batch of Elephant when I first started with Flintlocks, immediately switched to Goex and have found it so outstanding I haven't bothered to try anything else.
It's fast, clean, accurate, and delivered to my door for $9/Lb...no need to change

 

[Dave K]

I have used Goex for years and there certainly is nothing wrong with it. I too bought a case of Elephant and was more than disappointed in it. It is GONE.Also,Elephant is no longer being made, so you might as we get powder that you can buy more of. I now shoot mostly Swiss. Good stuff! The price is higher, but since you use less of it, it is not very much higher in price at all. Swiss is clean shooting too.I also use Schuetzen powder in some of the guns. It campares well with Goex, but I find it burns a little cleaner.

 

[Dave Poss]

Excuse me for butting in but on the same line...if the Swiss powder is hotter and less is used, is there a formula on the difference between it an GOEX? Or, does it come down to working up a new load all together? :hmm:

 

[Dave K]

I did this with Goex and Swiss. Once I had a load developed with Swiss that I liked, I started 20% less with Goex and kept adding until I had the same POI as with Swiss. :m2c:

 

I'm with jrdavis. Swiss is a top grade powder.
And yes it's worth the extra cash!

And yes, it takes a load development to find the proper load. In my experiance with swiss,,if you use 3f by volume,then go to 2f and use the same load by volume. If you use 2f already in .54 cal or less,,cut the volume by 20% for approximate equal charges. But you'll need to re-learn the fouling aspect of the powders and that may effect your patch/lube choices. If you think "volume" loads for 2f and/or 3f are the same as "weight" when you purchase a pound of powder, then nun of this will make sence to ya.

sum folks just like to "bang away" every weekend because it's fun,(they want cheap, and lots of volume),sum folks like to shoot "really well" because thats whats fun for them.(those guys shoot differnt).
Wanna be a top shooter?(BTW, top shooters hunt well also) then ya need ta step out-side the box. Study "Dutch". Spend the 'extra" up-front too learn above the curve from the start. Or, be like the rest,,"Swiss?","Whaa?",never heard of it! "My olde stuff always works as well as,,, :yakyak:,,"
"and I shoot all the time!,therefore I know,"" :yakyak:. Right. :hmm:.
luck to ya,

 

[Huntinfool]

I use Swiss in my rifle I've read dozens of reports by many different people. I'm inclined to believe the report that said, per volume Swiss weighs a little more than Goex. Which means if you use the same measure that throws 70 grains of Goex it may throw 76 to 77 grains of Swiss. :results:

That's makes the most sense to me. The same report said Swiss is also a little better refined than Goex which is a little better refined than Elephant or some of the others.

My own experience shows Swiss is about 15 to 20 percent hotter than Goex. Like sumtacks said it's worth the extra cash to me. I plan to keep paying the extra money cause I like how it shoots and how easy it is to cleanup. :imo:

YMH&OS,
Chuck Goodall
The Original Huntin' Fool
&
Kanawha Ranger Scribe

 

[Zonie]

flint leather: IMO the difference you noted when you went from Elephant to Goex is about the same as the difference between Goex and Swiss.
Not only is the Swiss more powerful (decrease your load about 15 to 20% for the same velocity) and it foules less, but if you are shooting it in a Flintlock, you will notice, as I did, that it ignites quicker and more reliably than Goex.

The Swiss is more than a small notch above the Goex. Is it worth almost twice the price? That's something each person will have to decide for themselves. :results:

 

[jrdavis]

The reason I say its hotter is the the grain size is smaller...the 2f is more like 3f is. I shoot 75 grains of
1-1/2 in my 54

 

[roundball]

Is it worth almost twice the price? That's something each person will have to decide for themselves

Zonie, that's what struck me about it...the cheapest I could find Swiss was twice as expensive as Goex...100% greater cost...but as you said, even if you can use less Swiss than Goex it's only 10-20% less so there's still a huge cost delta.

So in wrestling with this powder comparison, I have some 'practical' considerations that I think about:

Goex produces ragged holes to cloverleafs for me out to 75yds which is excellent for my hunting needs, so if Swiss is alledgedly more accurate, there wouldn't be enough practical difference left for me to acheive for there to be enough incentive to pay the double cost.

I don't know how ignition could be any faster than the Goex I use, or at least I don't know how I could measure it...it's already just a single event, and accuracy is tied in part to ignition speed, accuracy is excellent.

Goex is already so clean that I already don't have to wipe between shots during my 40 shot weekend range sessions...so there's no practical fouling related benefit that would be an incentive to pay the double[url] price...in[/url] other words, Swiss wouldn't let me "not wipe between shots" any more than I "already don't wipe between shots" now.

Swiss is black powder, so rifles still require a thorough cleaning after using it, same as Goex, so there would be no change to my cleaning regimen, no incentive there to pay the double price.

So personally, and it is a personal decision for each of us of course, I view this Goex / Swiss comparison in the same light as the 10 year old claim that Hodgdon's Pyrodex 'Select' was better than Pyrodex RS because it was cleaner, more accurate, etc, etc.

But in terms of any practical measurements, the overall sentiment from everyone I've ever discussed it with, is that 'Select' never really seemed to live up to those claims, or at least could not be realized by the typical muzzleloader shooter that tried it...to justify it's much higher cost over RS.

I guess the good news is that we're fortunate to have a variety of BP powders to choose from to suit different views on the subject...for me, for the price of a Lb of Swiss, I can get a Lb of Goex, a box of Hornady/Speer balls, and have change left over...without sacrificing accuracy & ignition, wiping & cleaning procedures, etc.

 

[jrdavis]

The local store here sells GOEX in the $13 range I had Swiss delivered to my door for $15...not that much difference . this was 2 years ago just before the ATF changed the rules again.

 

[roundball]

Best mail order delivered case prices I found were $18 for Swiss from the Maine Powder House and $9 for Goex from JJPyrotechnics in Moscow, PA

 

[RussB]

The local store here sells GOEX in the $13 range I had Swiss delivered to my door for $15...not that much difference . this was 2 years ago just before the ATF changed the rules again.

I keep on hearing how much cheaper Goex is in the East compared to what we pay in Washington state.
I'm curios as to why that might be. ::

It didn't use to be that way, just a few years (2/3 at most)I was paying $11 to $12 a pound here too. However, since the Patriot Act was passed (or that's what they tell me) the price has got totally out of control. Not at just one or two stores but everywhere in the state...or so it seems. And, they all say pretty much the same darn thing, "we have been forced to raise prices because of the things that went on with the Patriot Act"...Well, I'm sure it's not because they LIKE to hear everyone bitching, and running down in Oregon, or over in Idaho to buy their powder...and that is exactly what is happening.

Just wondering if ANYONE could possibly have a handle on this situation.
Is it "over the road shipping costs", insurance liabilities, our geographic position in this war on terror, or just plain out and out greed toward a special interest group??? The more I hear, the more I think it is pure greed!
BTW; We have an 8.6% sales tax, and the last "single" pound of Goex I bought ran a few cents over $24.00. (if I remember correctly, the price before tax was like $22.15 or $22.25)

I will be ordering a case of Goex out of Hobbs, New Mexico before the end of this month. Heck with this local BS! I would like to support them, but this is ridiculous.

Russ

 

[Rebel]

Russ, as of right now it is $12.50 a lb at the Gun Works in Springfield, Or. And $9.00+ if you buy it by the case.

 

[RussB]

Russ, as of right now it is $12.50 a lb at the Gun Works in Springfield, Or. And $9.00+ if you buy it by the case.

Rebel...You are absolutely right!

The Buffalo Hunter in Portland has it for the same price. AND....You folks don't have that state tax!

I'm just over 100 miles from Portland, and we always make several trips a year to John Day, and the Dalles to fish for Sturgeon...You can bet from now on that boat is coming back with more than just fish. Right now, me and my pard are splitting a case that's coming in from Hobbs, NM.
Like I said, I think it's a darn rip-off for these folks to charge that much. :curse:

They can sit on it. I am not buying any more until that price gets right with the rest of the country.

Russ

 

[RatherBHuntin]

It's all bunk RussB, UPS and Fedex have done the same thing regarding shipping firearms. They claim that handguns have to be overnighted due to the Patriot Act. They dont. They have to be overnighted due to the fact that they charge approximately twice as much for it, and can fool most people with their lies.

 

[jaydee4570]

Russ, Sportco in Fife usually has Goex for $12 or $13 per pound.

 

[RussB]

Russ, Sportco in Fife usually has Goex for $12 or $13 per pound.

Thanks JD2.
Fife is a bit closer than Portland. I also got this same information earlier in a PM...... So, I called SportCo. (I've called them twice since last week) Both times, after about 15 minutes, I finally get someone in sporting goods, they in turn tell me pretty much the same thing. Yes, we carry black powder, No, don't have any right now. The last time I asked if they will call me when they do get some powder in. Seems you have to be a member for that consideration. I believe membership is in the neighborhood of $20.00, but with that you get to buy things at the priced marked, otherwise you pay 5% more.....or so I'm told.

I seldom go up North for anything. I hate that traffic from Tacoma on up past Seattle. Right now I just got 12.5# Goex, that should last me through the winter.
The convenience of having it dropped off at the door is hard to beat. (actually it was my buddy's door) I may never go to the store looking for it again....Here is the way it works out being shipped from Coonies in Hobbs, NM.

25 pound (Mixed, your choice) at $8.25 per pound = $206.25
Shipping, and Haz Mat fees to zone 6 ------------- 58.55
Total----------------------------------------------$264.80
Split two ways ------------------------------------ 132.40
Price per pound, with 12.5 pound each ------------- 10.59

I still don't want to throw stones at my local people. They have taxes, insurance, mark-up, and whatever... to try to stay in business. I appreciate that. But when the final price hits the consumer at $20+ bucks a pound, not many people are going to sit still for that. :nono:

Just my thoughts.

Russ.

 

[jaydee4570]

Russ,

I stopped by Sportco last Friday and picked up a couple of pounds of Goex FFg (It was $12.95 per pound plus sales tax of course.) and they seemed to have a fair amount of it in stock at the time, but maybe it sells out quickly.....

Nothing is as easy as having it delivered to your door!!!!

John