Bow and arrow verses Flint Guns

[M. De Land]

I have always wondered how white foreigners " LIke Me" ever defeated the native American red man with single shot flint guns when used with in 30 yards or so as all the advantage was with the rapid fire bow and arrow!
I still get as much enjoyment out of constructing and shooting heat treated Hickory self bows with modern carbon shaft arrows as gun making and shooting black powder.

 

[deerstalkert]

they starved us, then got us hooked on fufraw like pots and pans. then stuff like pan cakes and waffles. caned beef was next. of course those white womens were and are hard to resist!

 

[Rancocas]

and trade blankets infected with smallpox.

 

[deerstalkert]

and trade blankets infected with smallpox.

and rot gut whiskey.

 

[LME]

I have always wondered how white foreigners " LIke Me" ever defeated the native American red man with single shot flint guns when used with in 30 yards or so as all the advantage was with the rapid fire bow and arrow!
I still get as much enjoyment out of constructing and shooting heat treated Hickory self bows with modern carbon shaft arrows as gun making and shooting black powder.

Carbon arrows in a self bow? That sacrilegious! LOL!
The indian was defeated by germ warfare not by guns or any hand made weapon. The Indians had never dealt with diseases like small Pox and the like . They hadn't built up an immunity to European diseases. Therefore when they came in contact with the germ that carried these diseases it reaked havoc on the tribes. Some tribes never existed anymore. The death rate was conparable to what happened in Europe percentage wise during the Black Death plague.

 

[Edm]

Just finished a book about the Comanches. The revolver was the big game changer. A single shot vs Comanche on horses was a death sentence. And the way that the military fought had to be changed from foot soldiers to mounted warfare.

 

[reddogge]

Carbon arrows and self bows? Watch out, the trad police will call on you.

 

[French Colonial]

Their defeat was inevitable, They were living in the stone age and were up against advanced manufacturing and technology (for the time period).

They were more than happy to become dependent on the white man, wool blankets, knives and pots and pans.

 

[Antelope Pete]

The big picture with diseases and dependency on trade items is one thing but the original question about flintlock or even percussion muzzleloaders for that matter vs. bows in close range fighting is a valid one. I've wondered the same thing. Later when revolvers and breech loaders became available is easy to understand.

I guess one partial explanation could be that loading for fighting would be different than we load today. By that I mean the first shot was with a patched ball but follow up shots could and were done by pouring powder and spitting a ball down the bore without a patch. Tom Tobin did that when he killed the Espinosa's. He had put some balls in his mouth and was ready to fire faster. Buffalo hunters on horseback did that too.

 

[Black_Feather]

and rot gut whiskey.

And in todays world, they gave us carbohydrates.

 

[M. De Land]

Carbon arrows in a self bow? That sacrilegious! LOL!
The indian was defeated by germ warfare not by guns or any hand made weapon. The Indians had never dealt with diseases like small Pox and the like . They hadn't built up an immunity to European diseases. Therefore when they came in contact with the germ that carried these diseases it reaked havoc on the tribes. Some tribes never existed anymore. The death rate was conparable to what happened in Europe percentage wise during the Black Death plague.

True but I simply cannot make an arrow any where near as consistent or uniform arrow to arrow as I can buy which translates to accuracy and as with fire arms accuracy is of primary importance for me plus I need all the help I can get with archery.

 

[Eterry]

I have always wondered how white foreigners " LIke Me" ever defeated the native American red man with single shot flint guns when used with in 30 yards or so as all the advantage was with the rapid fire bow and arrow!
I still get as much enjoyment out of constructing and shooting heat treated Hickory self bows with modern carbon shaft arrows as gun making and shooting black powder.

I just finished Carbine and Lance, a book from 1936 taken from military records and first hand accounts of the Ft Sill area from 1850 to 1910.
The bow was not always fatal with one arrow. There are many reports of person's shot by one arrow who survived. So a single arrow might not put you out of the fight.
A 50 caliber or much larger ball, OTOH, very well may go through and though and end you much faster.
Also, a one on one fight might turn out for the smoothbore, if the person ignored the pain and quickly returned fire with their muzzleloader. And a bow isn't a Lazer armed weapon, they missed as well.
One other thing; families were HUGE BITD, if attacked at home, a small squad were waiting to repel boarders. Many accounts of stolen livestock, but fatalities were few, usually.
It's a great book, the 7th cavalry with their Blonde Haired leader was stationed at Sill in the '60s, and had some very heavy engagements.
Also, the Spencer carbine was the Standard Issue weapon for cavalry West of the Mississippi until 1874, when Trooper's grudgingly turned them in for the Springfield.
I wonder how many Troopers bought their Spencer for the Surplus price of $10 and kept it in a saddle boot?

But OTOH, nearly all of the heavy fighting of the Red River Campagne was over by 1874.

 

[Johnny Too-Tall]

Carbon arrows and self bows? Watch out, the trad police will call on you.

HA HA Mine are carbon but made in a traditional wood like pattern add turkey barred shielded feathers and walla instant traditionalism. Don't forget the updated arrowheads in steel cut on contact.

 

[M. De Land]

I just finished Carbine and Lance, a book from 1936 taken from military records and first hand accounts of the Ft Sill area from 1850 to 1910.
The bow was not always fatal with one arrow. There are many reports of person's shot by one arrow who survived. So a single arrow might not put you out of the fight.
A 50 caliber or much larger ball, OTOH, very well may go through and though and end you much faster.
Also, a one on one fight might turn out for the smoothbore, if the person ignored the pain and quickly returned fire with their muzzleloader. And a bow isn't a Lazer armed weapon, they missed as well.
One other thing; families were HUGE BITD, if attacked at home, a small squad were waiting to repel boarders. Many accounts of stolen livestock, but fatalities were few, usually.
It's a great book, the 7th cavalry with their Blonde Haired leader was stationed at Sill in the '60s, and had some very heavy engagements.
Also, the Spencer carbine was the Standard Issue weapon for cavalry West of the Mississippi until 1874, when Trooper's grudgingly turned them in for the Springfield.
I wonder how many Troopers bought their Spencer for the Surplus price of $10 and kept it in a saddle boot?

I don't think the Spencer appeared to the public until after the end of the Civil war which would have been 1865 or so and there were thousands more muzzle loading muskets made during and before the war than were the relatively few Spencers.
Actually I think most of the Buffalo where killed off with Civil War surplus arms rather than the expensive Sharps or Rolling block cartridge guns that a few of the professional hide hunters used. One mans opinion.
Wiping out the Buffalo was a major factor in winning the Indian wars as well.

 

[Des52]

True but I simply cannot make an arrow any where near as consistent or uniform arrow to arrow as I can buy which translates to accuracy and as with fire arms accuracy is of primary importance for me plus I need all the help I can get with archery.

I too use carbon arrows with my selfbows, my wood arrows are not my daily shooters. If I brake or lose a carbon arrow it don't make me cuss as much as if I lose or brake a homemade wood shaft.

 

[deerstalkert]

Their defeat was inevitable, They were living in the stone age and were up against advanced manufacturing and technology (for the time period).

They were more than happy to become dependent on the white man, wool blankets, knives and pots and pans.

I agree with everything you stated except the "happy to become dependent" part. that was forced via the eradication of traditional food sources, enforced reservation internment, and the reality that the whites had better medicine to treat the diseases that were new to the people.
addressing the arrow verses flint gun, range played a big role. that and the above stated lethality of the firearm.
when i was a kid, i was given the chore of keeping rabbits out of my mothers garden. started that job with my self bow and obsidian tipped arrows. cedar shafted. i sometimes would get two rabbits a day and probably shot at six. some were struck and lost in the chapperal.
got a Winchester 67 when i was 12. best day was 9 cotton tails and 3 jack rabbits. i used 12 cartridges.
guns kill better.

 

[M. De Land]

I agree with everything you stated except the "happy to become dependent" part. that was forced via the eradication of traditional food sources, enforced reservation internment, and the reality that the whites had better medicine to treat the diseases that were new to the people.
addressing the arrow verses flint gun, range played a big role. that and the above stated lethality of the firearm.
when i was a kid, i was given the chore of keeping rabbits out of my mothers garden. started that job with my self bow and obsidian tipped arrows. cedar shafted. i sometimes would get two rabbits a day and probably shot at six. some were struck and lost in the chapperal.
got a Winchester 67 when i was 12. best day was 9 cotton tails and 3 jack rabbits. i used 12 cartridges.
guns kill better.

Well, a .22 cal LR repeater would be a huge advantage over a muzzle loading flint gun and more than adequate to take men down by the scores. I'm wondering how we survived the bow and arrow long enough to invent the cartridge repeaters.

 

[Tom A Hawk]

Their defeat was inevitable, They were living in the stone age and were up against advanced manufacturing and technology (for the time period).

They were more than happy to become dependent on the white man, wool blankets, knives and pots and pans.

A lot of truth there. Add in trickery, deceit, disease and false promises.

 

[waarp8nt]

A 50 caliber or much larger ball, OTOH, very well may go through and though and end you much faster.

There is a 12 minute plus entertaining and somewhat informative video on YouTube "How Deadly is a Flintlock Rifle" by Garand Thumb. I didn't post a link because it contains sware words, so we will just let folks search for it if they want to see it. Impressive the devastating effect on a a Ballistic Jel Mannequin.

 

[deerstalkert]

Well, a .22 cal LR repeater would be a huge advantage over a muzzle loading flint gun and more than adequate to take men down by the scores. I'm wondering how we survived the bow and arrow long enough to invent the cartridge repeaters.

the inventors stayed in the safe cities. well relatively safe!
and remember, many of the Indian wars were post civil war.