Bowie question

[davy]

A number of Bowie knives have a brass back installed on them. Some brass backs are bent and folded and formed OVER the blade itself .. others are formed or melted and embedded INTO a cutout in the blade and become a solid mass that is an integral part of the blade, and IMHO much better fitting and classier looking, such as the Randall knife below ...

My question is this ... I would like someone to explain to me the proper methods or way in which you would go about installing one as an embedded type of brass back into the blade.
Thanx for all replies! :hatsoff:

Davy

 

[anvil1231]

Davey, I have only seen this once,but the way the guy did it was he cut the depth of which he wanted the brass in the spine. He submerge the blade spine up about half way in a pan of water to not lose temper. He then took torch and brass brazing rod and filled it in slightly more higher and wider than the blade and milled or ground it back down flush. Hope this helps, Anvil

 

[LRB]

I made a slip on from a piece of brass sheet, hammered over a form the width of the blade, and soft soldered in place. Be aware, this is a 20th c. thing. I don't think anyone has yet found this feature on any documentable original.

 

Wick is correct here--there are no documented brass backed early Bowies. One early well known Bowie collector is quoted as saying that a brass back is proof of a fake! A bunch of brass back'd fakes were put on the market many years ago and have fooled many folks, including Mr. Musso, whose knife he promotes as being the real Alamo Bowie--and it has been copied many times and used in several movies! The worst case was that Harold Peterson put a photo of one of these fakes on the cover of his classic book American Knives! He later regretted that I am told. Many custom makers have perpetuated the myth by using copper or brass on blade spines...personally I'd stay away from them.

 

[davy]

Good points all! And yes I am aware that the brass back is questionable at best! But I just happen to like the look of the brass back on some knives!

Still in the thinking and planning stages .. lookin at options here! :grin:

Thanx guys!

Davy

 

[LRB]

Not saying my way is best, but the slip on and soldered type could be removed easily if you were to change your mind down the road.

 

[BS]

Is this what you are looking for?
http://www.homestead.com/beknivessite2/solderingguard.html

Also look at this one on knife making.

http://www.knivesby.com/knifemaking.html

 

[Birddog6]

I would like to see that done also. You ever try to braze or solder or silver solder something that is half emersed in water. It may not be impossible but it hugs the line real tight. :hmm:

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Good Morning Davy,

I believe the Musso Bowie has the slip-on/soldered type of brass back. At least it appeared to be so when it was on exhibit at the Buck Horn Saloon here in San Antonio. As such, the temperture required for soft solder would probably not affect the heat treatment of the cutting edge on a large heavy blade.

An old custom knife maker friend, the late Clyde Fischer would grind away a portion of the top of the blade and fill it back end with brazing rod before the heating treating process.

After the brazing, Clyde then heat treated only the lower cutting edge of the blade, thereby not heating the back of the blade hot enough to affect the brass back.

How other knife makers do this, I do not know, But Davy, that would make a good research project for you.

After all, I know you to be a person of means with plenty of time to pursue such an endeavor. It really would not cut into your time spent driving fast cars, chasing wild women, and drinking high dollar scotch. Is it does, you can always have your personal secretary (what's her name, the blonde) do the research for you. (David (likes to live in the fast lane).

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, what not? I am carrying your load.

 

[davy]

Good Morning Davy,

I believe the Musso Bowie has the slip-on/soldered type of brass back. At least it appeared to be so when it was on exhibit at the Buck Horn Saloon here in San Antonio. As such, the temperture required for soft solder would probably not affect the heat treatment of the cutting edge on a large heavy blade.

An old custom knife maker friend, the late Clyde Fischer would grind away a portion of the top of the blade and fill it back end with brazing rod before the heating treating process.

After the brazing, Clyde then heat treated only the lower cutting edge of the blade, thereby not heating the back of the blade hot enough to affect the brass back.

How other knife makers do this, I do not know, But Davy, that would make a good research project for you.

After all, I know you to be a person of means with plenty of time to pursue such an endeavor. It really would not cut into your time spent driving fast cars, chasing wild women, and drinking high dollar scotch. Is it does, you can always have your personal secretary (what's her name, the blonde) do the research for you. (David (likes to live in the fast lane).

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA or NMLRA Member, what not? I am carrying your load.

You are feelin yours oats today with your better half outta town for a few weeks aren't John H?! :blah:

Dont worry .. you WILL feel much better when the swelling goes down, and the brusing goes away! :rotf:

Davy

 

Be aware, this is a 20th c. thing. I don't think anyone has yet found this feature on any documentable original.

While it may be true for Bowies there are other pre-20th century knives with brass insert backs..

the knife in the middle (and the closeup on the right) is a late 17th Century Scottish Hieland Dirk (circa 1680-90):

 

[LRB]

Thankyou Graywolf, that is very interesting. Wasn't Bowie of Scottish ancestry?

 

Howdy Wick -
You're welcome - sorry the pic isn't clearer - for me the interesting part is the method used to attach the brass to the steel - the blade appears to be notched and the brass bent around and held to the steel back with the notches.

I'm not sure if Bowie was of Scots or Scots-Irish heritage? The latter I believe??????

also Vince Vaughn has a great tutorial on how-to make a wood lined/leather covered sheath along with some great pics of Scottish knives. swords, etc[url] http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?username=vevans[/url]

 

The brass-backed Scots dirks may help exlain the fake bowies, as I believe it was from the British Isles that many of these fakes came from! Apparently the maker (faker) adopted a tradition from the Scots for his "bowies". Whatever Bowie's ancestry was, there is no evidence that his knives had brass backs, nor any other period Bowie knife. There are so many myths about the man and the knife already, and we don't need any more! The unfortunate truth is that even among people that knew Jim Bowie personally and shared the trail with him, there is disagreement as to the knife he carried. One source even has him losing it on a hunting trip long before the Alamo and another has him giving it away. His older brother John said that Jim's "hunting knife" was only a foot long, handle and all! That would make the blade 8" maximum, and probably less. I have already given (above) his brother Rezin's description of the sandbar knife (a bit over 9" blade). Smithwick claims his knife had a 10" blade. Rezin's personal knife after the sandbar fight had a shade over 10" blade. the fancier knives he had Searles make for gifts all had blades 9" or shorter. The blade Black made for him had only a 6" blade. NONE of these knives had arcuate clips, full guards (most had no guards and straight backs) or brass backs. I have seen a reputed sketch of the Smithwick knives, but no picture of any has ever been published to my knowledge. For a backwoods youth freshly in the blacksmith business (by his own account) it would have been unusual to say the least for him to have such a fancy tang stamp as has been described by a post above! Until that time, he seems not have been a knifemaker at all. His story was related at age 94, if I remember right. But I do not totally discount his story. A very similar knife can be found on the internet, said to be Sam Houston's, but unmarked as to maker.