Box joints, back in the day

[BillinOregon]

OK, so I want to make some wooden boxes for various purposes that will fit in with the 19th century: camp boxes, ammo boxes, range boxes etc.
My internal dialogue goes like this:

Auctor: "I want to make boxes with authentic 19th-century joints."
Lector: "Well, you'll have to use finger joints or dovetails."
Auctor: "NOT THAT AUTHENTIC."

I tend to be a butt-joint man owing entirely to lack of skill and patience. Rabbet joints might be within my grasp with the right tools, but finger joints -- or dovetails? Never. And yet the finger joint in particular seems to have been a nearly universal joint for box and crate construction in times past. Did the builders have access to and use jigs to make these joints, or were they just so bloody good at their work that they could do them freehand?
I realize that for large quantities of like boxes, as might be ordered for a War Department contract, said boxes would have likely been produced in a relatively sophisticated factory shop running saws, lathes and other powered tools off a series of leather belts linked perhaps to steam or water power. But boxes and cassettes (and even coffins) to order must have been bread and butter work for individual carpenters who lacked access to power.
Who can shed light for a pilgrim?

 

[ohio ramrod]

Actually there were several ways to make the box joint. One was to use strips of wood and "overlap" the strips to make the joints. Dixie used to sell boxes made this way (and may still sell them I believe they were called "Old Ebenizer" boxes.) The most common method was to use a pattern to mark out the notches and then simply cut them with a "back saw" and sharp chisels. It is amazing to us modern woodworkers just how skilled and efficient the old timers were with basic hand tools. In fact they actually made most of their tools themselves. Which is where to old phrase: " You can tell the quality of his work by the quality of his tools." originated. And yes many early large shops had shaft driven "gang saws" which could have ben used. So there is no one definite answer as to how they were made. It is sort of an "all of the above" :idunno:

 

[Elnathan]

Finger joints are fairly new, I believe, a product of the machine age. Dovetail joints were pretty standard during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. 17th century boxes were often nailed, I believe.

As far as I know, dovetails were made using a marking gauge and a bevel gauge/sliding bevel, plus and a saw and chisel. No fancy jigs. There are a couple little tricks to make the job easier. One is to remove waste from the outside in, so any tear-out, etc., is inside the finished piece. Another is, after making the initial cuts in one piece, put it up against the second piece and run the saw through the kerf to mark the matching cuts on the other piece. Also, make the pins and tails 1/32" longer than necessary, (meaning that you will make the boards slightly longer than you want the final product), so that when you assemble them they stick out a bit, like a stereotypical log cabin corner, then plane them down flush.

BTW, you might want to have a look at Tage Frid's book on joinery - I found it very informative.

 

[GunnyGene]

I've done hundreds of both dovetail and box joints, both by hand and using a router. I actually prefer hand cut, since it allows more latitude in design, and unless your cutting a couple hundred of the same - say for drawers - actually faster than setting up a jig and router. Marking and measuring skill and a good zero kerf saw and sharp chisels are essential.

Btw, both types of joinery have been around for a long time. Examples exist on ancient Egyptian and Asian woodwork going back several thousand years.

 

[Woodyrock]

The advantage of a table saw over hand tools making a box joint is production. With the table saw one can cut a raft of box ends with each pass whereas by hand it is one joint at a time. Jointing by hand the dovetail would be faster than a box joint due to the number of joints. A jig to run box joints on a table saw is pretty simple. Basically a fence with an indexing finger. First joint is cut with piece to be jointed up against the finger, then each joint is indexed by putting the previous joint on the index finger. The finger being the width of the joint.
Here are a couple of photographs of mine.
Woody

 

[Woodyrock]

The advantage of a table saw over hand tools making a box joint is production. With the table saw one can cut a raft of box ends with each pass whereas by hand it is one joint at a time. Jointing by hand the dovetail would be faster than a box joint due to the number of joints. A jig to run box joints on a table saw is pretty simple. Basically a fence with an indexing finger. First joint is cut with piece to be jointed up against the finger, then each joint is indexed by putting the previous joint on the index finger. The finger being the width of the joint.
Here are a couple of photographs of mine.
Woody

 

[GunnyGene]

Yes, I agree. I also have done box (aka finger or comb ) joints on the table saw using a jig like you showed. Also done them on a router table and band saw. As with most joinery there are multiple ways to skin the same cat. It's useful to know more than one way. :wink:

Some days I'll do most everything by hand simply to avoid the noise of power tools; and I find hand work relaxing. In other cases, a power tool only allows you to make mistakes faster.

And if you're working on a large piece, such as a chest on chest, it's simply not possible to use a power tool safely if at all.

 

[BillinOregon]

Aw, gee, you guys are no fun, having skill, experience and proper tools!

:haha: :bow:

 

[GunnyGene]

There's a method to the madness. Every new "honeydo" project necessitates a new tool. Sometimes more than one depending on the project. :grin:

 

[Woodyrock]

None of my cordless tools use batteries, most have a crank of some kind.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Clever I ain't.
Even though I do woodworking, my skill levels are not close to my friends. I have never made a box/finger/dovetail joint. Maybe if somebody came over and tutored me once I would catch on.

 

[matt denison]

"Some days I'll do most everything by hand simply to avoid the noise of power tools;..."

There is much truth in this statement. I thought it was only me.

 

[GunnyGene]

There's several videos on youtube that are pretty good for handcut dt's, etc. Might help. It's really a lot about muscle memory, and proper sawing/chisel technique. I started out years ago just practicing on scrap wood. Btw, soft woods are really harder to do than hardwood, because the fibers tend to compress and tear rather than be cut, so practice on hardwoods if you want to give it a try. Razor sharp tools also help. By that, I mean a sharp chisel should dry shave your arm hair without pulling.

 

[GunnyGene]

Nope, you're not the only one. :grin: My hearing is bad enough already, and some tools - especially a lunchbox planer - is almost more than I can stand, even with hearing protection.

 

[Elnathan]

Aw, gee, you guys are no fun, having skill, experience and proper tools!

:haha: :bow:

Heh. As of this date, I have never even tried making dovetails, and only finished making/repairing/tuning the required tools a few months ago. I have just done a bunch of reading about making dovetails.

I hope to get some practice in relatively soon, but I have a bunch of other projects and a new job that currently requires overtime, so...

 

[ohio ramrod]

Your jig will work even faster with the freud box cutting pair of blades. I use them with a similar jig I made and can make twenty boxes or drawers in about five hours. But for true "old time boxes" a few hand cut dovetails do the job. The old time dovetails were not the many evenly spaced ones cut with most modern jigs. :hmm:

 

[Woodyrock]

I do use a good quality dado stack when using the jig. I was too lazy to put the dado stack in the saw for the photo. The jointed piece of ply was found in the scrap pile. It was big box store Birch ...many lamination's but delaminated in the saw. I have several finger joint jigs, one for each size finger.This one was the most accessible.

Hey Gunny, Happy Birthday, Semper Fi.
Woody

 

[BillinOregon]

Just dug out my copy of "Civil War Woodworking" by A.J. Hamler, and he has chapters on both hardtack boxes, which utilize butt joints, and ammunition boxes, which use hand-sawn dovetails. My thought is that many of the projects in this book ought to be good for decades prior to the Civil War, if not necessarily the 18th century.

 

[GunnyGene]

Thank you, Woody.

 

[GunnyGene]

Hamler's good. DT's on boxes have been used for a few thousand years. One of those rare things that, although it has much latitude in design, is functionally perfect for the task, as well as aesthetically attractive.

As for ammo chests and related, there's a fellow in Texas that I know from another forum that builds cannon carriages, limber chests and related that are worth eyeballing for design ideas. http://www.jmelledge.com/