BP substitutes ?

[msarver]

My apologies if this has been asked before or is in the wrong area...

All of the different BP substitutes have me confused. My new Uberti 1858 44. Remington recommends 24 grains of BP.

Any opinions on what brand/type of powder to use? If you use any of the 'hotter' substitutes that say use less powder, do you use a filler like cream-of-wheat, etc?

signed "Totally Confused"

 

[rafterob]

Pyrodex P can be used with the same volume measurement as Black Powder. 777 I would reduce by maybe 4 grains with that load. Those two are the only substitutes I would recommend in a cap and Ball revolver.The max load you can fit in the Remmy is 35 grains of Black powder and that makes a big boom. Most shoot anywhere from 15-25 grains for a good target load.Filler is not necessary but may help improve accuracy when using smaller loads.

 

[Zonie]

If your loading 24 grains of black powder, Pyrodex or 777 you will be happy even though you didn't worry about reducing the powder charge.

Just be sure to use a black powder measuring device that measures by volume, not by actual weight and you'll be fine.

These synthetic black powder substitutes all weigh much less per cubic inch of volume than real black powder does.
They produce about the same, or slightly more power per cubic inch than real black powder but in your Remington it will still be safe.

 

[Poor Private]

The information given by Zonie is spot on.
I was given several containers of 777 by friends and family over the years. I use the same amount by volume as Black Powder. Just remember when your supply gets low and you buy either a synthetic(for lack of a better word) or true black Powder do not mix the different types. Don't toss those last few ounces of 777 into Pryo P, or true Black Powder, and vis versa.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've had best accuracy in two different guns with Pyrodex R-S, Pyro P also worked well but R-S was a bit more accurate from my guns. My brief trial of trip seven was disappointing for accuracy.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I have tried all of the BP subs and have found them very corrosive. They will eat your guns up. I stick with old fashion BP.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I'd be generally inclined to agree with your assessment Mike but revolvers are so easy to clean very thoroughly and inspect completely.

Oh wait, I just read your post on another thread and it seems you don't clean your guns, so point taken. :haha:

 

[Dphar]

BP works best. 777 is the least corrosive but makes more pressure than BP being designed for HV inline ML loads.
P-dex is the most corrosive.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I'd be generally inclined to agree with your assessment Mike but revolvers are so easy to clean very thoroughly and inspect completely.

Oh wait, I just read your post on another thread and it seems you don't clean your guns, so point taken. :haha:

Perhaps he has, as I have, seen many guns shot with the stuff that the owners claimed were always cleaned and "still perfect" but in reality were heavily pitted inside and out, one had even been reblued over the pits .

Don't pull the "cleaning" thing on me. A friend, very well experienced, shot a 1869 TD 50-70 with the stuff and it took him a year to stop the after rust. Why? Because the bore while very nice for its age had a very light pit and this give the fouling a place to "hide. He finally removed the wood and took the barreled action into the shower for an extended flush and finally stopped the after rust.
I have also seen bluing removed at the muzzle end by wet fouling pushed out the muzzle by shooters wiping between relays at BPCR Silhouette matchs then not cleaning the damp fouling off the outside of the barrel.

But don't expect to see this sort of thing in a magazine article.
Dan

 

[Mike Brooks]

I'd be generally inclined to agree with your assessment Mike but revolvers are so easy to clean very thoroughly and inspect completely.

Oh wait, I just read your post on another thread and it seems you don't clean your guns, so point taken. :haha:

I'd be cleaning my guns like crazy if I were using subs! :haha:

 

[hanshi]

Am I missing something or is it true you don't clean your guns?? :shocked2: I do know of a couple of experienced bp shooters who don't clean their guns and they claim the bores stay fine. Maybe I don't understand where they are coming from and there's more to it than that. Since I've always lived in very humid climates I'm religious about cleaning though if I lived in an arid climate I probably wouldn't worry so much. One thing about these subs, after a little experimentation I'm almost afraid to trust them. Ballistically I've found them to be dismal failures and not all that easy to clean up after.

 

[Marc Adamchek]

OldFool - At the risk of sounding impudent I will tell you to DUMP THE SUBSTITUTES and get yourself GENUINE BLACK POWDER.

You more than likely won't find any at your local stores that supposedly cater to the sportman. BUY IT ONLINE.

You will NEVER regret doing so.

From one old fool to another

 

[Rat Trapper]

One thing about these subs, after a little experimentation I'm almost afraid to trust them. Ballistically I've found them to be dismal failures and not all that easy to clean up after.[/quote]

:bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull:

I've shot a lot of Tripple Seven in my TC Hawken rifles and I find it very accurate, and just as easy to clean as Goex if not better. The muzzle vel is also higher than Goex. I have shot sub one inch groups at 50 yards with powder that was over two years old and round balls. What the heck more do you want??

 

[n.h.schmidt]

I have to say ,I'm with Rat on this. I have used Pyrodex and Real BP .Both have worked well for me. You do get more hang fires with the Pyrodex. I have gotten hang fires with BP too. As to rust ,it has not been a problem for me. I nowadays soak my rifles in full strength Ballistol after cleaning. I do check on them from time to time too.As to shelf life,I have some Pyrodex that is 30years old .It hasn't clumped and fires fine. Most of my Pyrodex shooting has been with much newer powder. I have been given cans of Pyrodex by shooters who didn't like it. I shoot it up and would take all they give me.
I have a local BP scource and mostly shoot that at the matches .
n.h.schmidt

 

[Dphar]

If you knew how many times people have told me they never have a rust problem with corrosive subs then my showing them the pits... In most cases I can tell what the gun was used with at a glance.

777 SFAIK is non-corrosive. But its also pretty hot stuff and care needs to be used in traditional MLs. Its designed for HV loads in "modern MLs".

No oil will stop the perchlorate fouling from eating the steel and it can damage a gun on 1/2 hour trip home from the range and its very much cumulative.
The factory mades have fouling traps in the breech. BP fouling is largely inert here if oiled the other stuff is never inert, if it cannot be washed off the steel it will eat it no matter what its coated with.

I am not stating your bores are pitted its possible they are not, but based on experience its a good bet.

Dan

 

I have tried all of the BP subs and have found them very corrosive. They will eat your guns up. I stick with old fashion BP.

Odd, as I've found Triple 7 to be far cleaner, easier to clean and much less corrosive.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've used mostly blackpowder but tried Pyrodex when it first came out in the '70's and have used a bit now and then ever since. I've heard all the horror stories about "wormhole" corrosion and such and can only say "I've never seen it". I've used it in roundball percussion muzzleloaders, percussion revolvers and ML pistols and shotguns, and in breechloading cartridge guns. In my experience with cartridges I've generally gotten better accuracy from Pyrodex than from black, probably because it fouls less and the fouling is softer, factors more noticeable in guns which are not swabbed between shots. Likewise I've gotten better accuracy with Pyrodex in cap & ball revolvers, probably for the same reason. In ML rifles I don't actually "swab between shots" but do use a wet lube, mostly spit, so in effect the bore is swabbed in loading and there I've seen no difference in accuracy between Pyrodex and BP.
Pyrodex IS harder to ignite. That is the very reason it was created, so that it could be classified as a Flammable Solid rather than and explosive like blackpowder. It is more prone to hangfires in guns which have marginal ignition,caused by a very small flash channel between nipple and powder chamber or which have a very small diameter powder chamber. Pyrodex RS has a very large granual size and simply will not flow into small diameter holes. An easy solution to that problem is to use Pyrodex "P", which is the same formula in smaller granules. That switch is very much like substituting 3f black for 2f black, reduce the charge a bit if it makes you uneasy.
I mostly shoot Goex black powder because I shoot flintlocks and Pyrodex is not much good for flint but in C&B revolvers, cartridges and percussion guns with good ignition properties I have no complaint with Pyrodex. Cleaning with water, drying and oiling after is no different than with BP.
Pyrodex no longer contains perchlorate, the formula was changed many years ago.