bp vs modern

this is an argument that will never end. We all see sources on the internet that this bullet and powder combination in this or that gun will or will not do this.
But what you really need to do is research from an authoritative book that is actually published.
Like a hornady, remington, or lee or lyman reloading manual. I would believe those than an internet source any day.
One thing you're over looking. Muzzle velocity and energy is a nice reference point but what you REALLY need to concern yourself with is energy and velocity at the IMPACT POINT.
Remember these rifles and pistols and revolvers were being used day to day to bring down all sorts of game for well over 300 years before smokeless was invented.
Rifles and pistols from .36 up to 68 were used.
One: we must now follow state hunting regs on what the state feels is acceptable for a humane kill.
Two: each person has to know his limitations and skills.
Three: Each situation is going to be different.
close in heavy brush, light brush, no brush
Medium distance, brush or not
long distance open terrain.
Wind, the animal itself.
Each situation will determine the firearm and load that will be needed.
If you want to hunt with a .44, .45, .50, .54 pistol / revolver and your state allows it, do so
if you feel you are really capable of a clean kill.
But bring along the appropriate rifle also. Just in case.
Remember the powders they used back then, weren't as refined as the ones today, and weren't required to meet a myriad of regulations in manufacture.
Many people make their own, and swear the charcoal from this tree or that tree, give more energy.
If you really want to know what your gun is doing (velocity wise) with your powder, cap, and projectile, get your own chronograph and hit the range. With those readings using mathematics you can extrapolate the muzzle energy of the projectile and then the impact energy.
AS to 44 mag vs 44bp RB.
About 30 years ago I tried something.
The .44 mag bullet is smaller in diameter than the RB, but is is about 1/2 again heavier.
RB average 143 gr Mag 200-340gr
within reason, the heavier the projectile the more impact energy it delivers.
I found an empty 55 gal oil drum with a removable lid.
At about 20yds I fired the 44 mag super blackhawk at the barrel. Had a small hole going in and about 2" diameter coming out the other side of the barrel. The edges of the hole were torn outward and jagged.
Did same with an 1858 with dupont BP 30 gr of 3fff.
The hole going in was bigger diameter as the 44bp RB is bigger in diameter then the 44 mag.
It did not penetrate the back side.
But there was a bulge about 4" or so in diameter and protruded about 1/2". Retrieved the RB it had flattened to about a 50 cent piece in diameter and nothing but jagged edges all around.
If that had been a pronghorn or mule deer at that distance, no doubt It would of killed it as quick as any modern gun.

 

[necchi]

What's your Point?
No one here is trying to compare anything to modern arms because this is a traditional forum.

 

[cynthialee]

not only that but you are comparing apples to oranges
A race car to an old Dodge pickup...

 

[satx78247]

Perhaps his point is that a revolver like the Colt's Walker is perfectly suitable for deer at any range that a .44MAG revolver is.

yours, satx

 

[Billnpatti]

Well, I read it twice and I believe you are right.

I believe he is also saying that within their limitations, black powder guns are very effective hunting weapons. I agree.

No argument here.

 

What's your Point?
No one here is trying to compare anything to modern arms because this is a traditional forum.

Yes if you go backwards a few posts it was brought up. .38 and 44 mags vs BP.
And not trying to be a smart a or anything.
Go back and actually read and think about what I said.
the argument of bp vs modern will never end.
neither will the argument of whether a BP is suitable for hunting.
Like I said they brought down all sorts of game in all terrain and all conditions for 300 years before smokeless.
So yes they are capable of doing so today.
The thing is, the limitations of each hunters capability of a humane kill in any situation with ANY gun.
Out here in the west with large areas of open terrain. I'm not going to shoot at any pronghorn or mule deer with any BP past 150 yds or so. because I know MY skill level.
And with a single shot pistol or revolver in the .44 caliber, definitely not past 40 yds. And then only if it is a perfect shot or I am starving.
But can a .44 BP revolver be used and make a clean kill?
Yes it can. Do you or I necessarily want to make it a weapon of choice? Probably not.
But it is still capable!

 

[Don]

After many years studying ballistics charts,reading stories, shooting over a chronograph and watching many youtube videos I have concluded one thing. Black powder guns are just as deadly and effective as modern firearms.

Don

 

[Toomuch51]

What's your Point?
No one here is trying to compare anything to modern arms because this is a traditional forum.

Yes if you go backwards a few posts it was brought up. .38 and 44 mags vs BP.
And not trying to be a smart a or anything.
Go back and actually read and think about what I said.
the argument of bp vs modern will never end.
neither will the argument of whether a BP is suitable for hunting.
Like I said they brought down all sorts of game in all terrain and all conditions for 300 years before smokeless.
So yes they are capable of doing so today.
The thing is, the limitations of each hunters capability of a humane kill in any situation with ANY gun.
Out here in the west with large areas of open terrain. I'm not going to shoot at any pronghorn or mule deer with any BP past 150 yds or so. because I know MY skill level.
And with a single shot pistol or revolver in the .44 caliber, definitely not past 40 yds. And then only if it is a perfect shot or I am starving.
But can a .44 BP revolver be used and make a clean kill?
Yes it can. Do you or I necessarily want to make it a weapon of choice? Probably not.
But it is still capable!

I still see no argument, The point here is we do use them because they DO work.

Toomuch
---------
Shoot Flint

 

[satx78247]

Speaking of BP pistols, I would NOT feel "under-armed" with a brace of our Military Police Regiment "insignia weapons". = The Model of 1805 Harpers Ferry Pistol, in .69 caliber.

Fwiw, the first Redcoat officer (a LT of hussars/name unknown) who was killed in the War of 1812 was killed by a US Army Provost Guard (CPL Jacob Wills, Walls OR Wells, nobody is sure which, as the handwriting is both poorly formed & "smeared".) with a single shot from one of his Model 1805 pistols. = The ball "throwed him from the saddle".
The "reporte of engagmont"(sic), which is on display at the Military Police Museum (at Ft Leonard Wood, MO), suggests that the officer MAY have died from a broken neck, rather than a direct result of his belly wound.

The Provost Guard Corporal was assigned as a "river crossing guard" along what we modern MPs would call "the MSR" (or MAIN SUPPLY ROUTE). = Manning "choke points", straggler control, MSR security, EPW operations, maintaining discipline, war crimes investigation, reconnaissance and "rear combat operations" were then (and still are) the priority CS (Combat Support) missions of the Military Police Corps/Regiment.

yours, satx

 

[azmntman]

I choose the dodge pick up

 

[dc7x64]

I would like to start out by saying that a lot of my posts on muzzleloader forum make me seem like a novice, but I am really well schooled in my knowledge of firearms. With that said I have never met with a more opinionated almost "snobby" crowd of people before I became a member of this forum! That is why I keep coming back believe it or not! Black powder and the arms that use it are a very complex subject. Like you said, we would not be here if it wasn't for black powder and lead. I know that, you know that, but the frustration lies with the fact that modern gun enthusiasts believe that only the most recent advanced technology in firearms and propellants are worth discussing. I think that most on this forum will agree, we are first and foremost historians, it is very important to us to preserve our past and never forget where we came from and the hardships our Forefathers endured. I am the only person among my peers that shoot muzzleloading firearms. For that I am constantly ridiculed in hunting camp and on the range. That only adds fuel to MY fire as I see my centerfire weapons disappearing from my gun cabinet only to be replaced by muzzleloaders and BPCR guns! In example, I went to the local gun store the other day and asked if they had percussion caps for blackpowder rifles, the clerk said yes and handed me a pack of 209 shotgun primers! I said no! I meant for sidelock rifles! He said,"you mean for them 'ole flintlock rifles?"...."no I only carry modern stuff"...see? frustration. :cursing: See stay on this forum and talk to the "sulphur snobs" you will never convince the "modern" crowd to come around.

 

[jaxenro]

There isn't any argument. Modern weapons are more effective, more powerful, more efficient, more reliable, etc. they were improvements over earlier weapons just like they were over even earlier weapons since man first picked up a rock

But the rock will still kill you just like a flintlock or a bow and arrow will. I wouldn't want to send a regiment to war today using muzzleloading cannons and 1861 Springfield rifles but not a lot of deer are armed with AK47's either.

Bows and arrows and muzzleloading guns are both effective, efficient game getters within their limitations. Just because a Ford isnt a Ferrari don't mean it won't go to the grocery store

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I agree with you and have hunted and will be hunting a 280+ pound Hog on the 25th of this month once more with my Walker, 52 grains of 3Fg Goex and a 225 grain .456 soft lead Lee conical. Last April got a one-shot stop at 20 paced yards, full broadside through both lungs. Hog just fell-over dead in her tracks.

The famous line from the Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry series, "A Mans' got to KNOW his limitations" comes to mind every time I read a story about hand gun hunting. As you brought this thread to life, you'll get the biggest "kick" outta what you're gonna read next!:

One of the Guides on last April's Hog Hunt told me that a feller with a .44 Magnum took 17 shots to kill his pig last year! I asked the Guide "How many times did he MISS?" The Guide just laughed and said he didn't know, and then asked me IF I knew what I was doin' with my brace of Cap-N-Ball Colt revolvers, for I had NO rifle to go afield. I told the Guide to not give it another thought, since I was there deliberately using the gun that helped earn me my NRA Distinguished Expert in Muzzleloading Pistol, which is an aggregate shot at both 25 & 50 yards. After my one-shot stop, I asked the Guide who was busy field dressing my Sow how I did. His reply was, and I'm paraphrasing, "I wish you could teach everybody that comes here with a hand gun how to shoot". I laughed and asked about my bullet's path, as I was sticking my pointer into the entrance wound with room to spare (the round started depositing its' energy into the animal upon impact). The Guide's response was, "You got BOTH lungs and did better than guys with fancy guns & scopes".

I tell this story NOT to blow smoke up my arse, but to illustrate the effectiveness of a 166 year old tool in trained hands under the correct circumstances.

As to folks not wanting to learn the "Old Ways", I have to say I must respectfully disagree. I'm a member of both NMLRA Charter Clubs in NJ and they are both growing in memberships, with most folks dicovering the ways of Old for the first time. Teenager just won Flintlock Shooter of the Year, and his proud Dad won the Smoothie Shooter of the Year. Several women in both groups. Several kids coming up the ranks. Black powder in NJ is alive & well!

Sorry for being a tad verbose. Happy New Year to all of you!

Dave

 

I'm not disputing anybody's skills or capabilities or knowledge here.
I'm just saying that all these BP guns are great fun to shoot and are great for what they were designed for and to do 150 years ago.
But don't over reach their or your limitations.
If you want to hunt, bear, deer, elk, hogs with them by all means do so. You know what you are capable of.
But remember, the idea of sportsmanship is a good, clean, humane kill, not causing the game any more pain and suffering than is absolutely necessary.
Yes these weapons are quite deadly when used properly.
You mentioned a shot a guy made.
Yep.
Billy Dixon is claimed to have shot an Indian off his horse with a breech load Sharps out to around 1500 yds or so.
But that does not mean it is the proper weapon for anywhere's near that distance for hunting today. 300 - 500 yds maybe. But still I'd want it under 200yd.
And if you are wanting to use these to go against armed troops with modern weapons. Yes you would be under armed. These don't have the distance impact energy or modern weapons.
They are slow and clumsy to reload, son't have the sustained rate of fire. nor the long fange and flat trajectory.
But if it was all you had, then again by all means do so. Be more selective of your target.

 

[necchi]

Go back and actually read and think about what I said.

Oh, I get it. Those topics don't interest me. I don't bother to read them because I'm here for traditional information.

the argument of bp vs modern will never end.

Yeah it does, just don't participate in arguments with modern equipment guys and the argument is over.
Simple. I don't compare them at all.

p.s. I have several CF guns and hand load for them, but that's a topic I don't discuss here, :idunno:

 

[jaxenro]

I don't remember anyone here advocating using BP firearms against troops armed with modern weapons

Not sure what your trying to get at except some common sense advice to know your own, and your guns, limitations

 

[azmntman]

Ask the Russians about old weapons in war....seem to recall they were pretty well matched with the mountain men in Afghanistan before we tried it? In war ya use what ya have, in the deer woods you have many choices (or will soon when you figure out how to get more guns in past the wife). I would love to get a deer with a BP pistol but I would rather get the deer so have so far taken the trusty CVA ST Louis after same and have done well. If I get an early cow in the freezer I may opt for the .50 Mnt Pistol in a blind some ear fr deer. BP Revolvers are outlawed in AZ for most hunting.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Agree. It's the ability to use what you're shooting that spells success or failure. The "limitations" comment is also true. When we were fighting and arguing with the state that a special "Muzzleloading Season" was a viable idea, it was that we accepted the fact, up front, that using a muzzleloader was a matter of accepting the limitations of the guns range and knock down, then being willing and able to work within those limitations. I have never regretted the effort but I/we could never have imagined where the sport would go and how it would change. "Traditional" was an accepted fact since that's all there was then or would be for some years.

 

[Zonie]

To all:

Please limit your discussions to arms that were in use (or their reproductions) before 1866.

This applies to events as well.

Thank You.