BP waterfowling?

[bigbore442001]

I guess we lost a number of posts in the last glitch, so I will do my best to replicate what was lost.

The other night after I set a couple of lines for snapping turtles, I stopped off at the rod and gun club bar. After a little bit of libation, I was chatting with a friend about my BP shotgun. He has a TC New Englander while I have the Black Mountain Magnum. I told him of an interest in taking it out for ducks and geese this coming fall. He commented that you won't have the range.He said that the max load you can use is 1 5/8 oz of shot.

I didn't say anything but after seeing the patterns at 30 yards I don't see why that gun wont cleanly take down ducks and Canada geese at 30 yards.

So. I would appreciate any comments or advice from those who have far greater experience in these matters. Thank you.

 

[roundball]

I had made a lengthy detailed post about the new tungsten shot because I had wanted to try some.
I won't try to recreate it again...bottom line, it's mixed with a polymer that keeps it soft like lead, performs exactly like lead, load it just like lead, no cup required, no harm to old original barrels.

The bad news is it costs $30 a pound...that's only 9-10 shots...if it truly is like lead, you could do load development with lead (because its so cheap at $50-60/25lbs :shake then use just a few Tungsten shots to verify, fine tune.

 

[BrownBear]

Yup, I was one of your lost respondents. I had extensive experience using a ML for ducks during the days of lead. My old Navy Arms double was cylinder bore, but using WW Red plastic wads I was able to tighten patterns quite a bit. My loads were moderate with 1 1/4 ounce of shot and chronied just over 1000 fps.

I tended to "size up" on shot, using #4 or #5 rather than #6 for mallards. It was a clean killer at 30 yards, my personal shooting limit. It was just a matter of picking the right location and setting your decoys closer.

I let the gun go before any reasonable alternatives to steel showed up, much less reasonable wads for loading your own steel. With the wads available today, I wouldn't hesitate to use steel, but would "size up" here too. But in the case of steel I would probably be using #2 or #1 shot, same as I do with my cartridge guns now. You aren't going to get the high velocities of shotshells out of your muzzleloader, so making up the difference via shot size is the answer even if patterns are less dense. That's not an issue at closer ranges.

As for the tungsten shot Round Ball mentions, Kent has been putting something very similar in their shells for years, and in my experience it's a stone killer on Canada geese. My choice load of #2's in 3 1/2" hulls will calm any yearning you have for lead, both in killing and in range.

For me having that kind of shot available for reloading is good news rather than bad, in spite of the price. It was unusual for me to shoot more than 10 shots in a day to get a limit of mallards with my ML. You're so slow reloading and ranges are so close, you tend to concentrate more and shoot less. At $30 a pound for the shot or roughly $3 a shot, you're still only talking $30 for a very busy day of waterfowling or some rotten shots. Look at the prices for the most advanced shotshells today, and modern waterfowlers are paying more than that for a box of 10 shells, and most aren't just shooting one box a day. If you were shooting a single barrel, I'd expect you to shoot even less than I did with a double, and you'd probably hit better than me too, not having that extra barrel for backup.

Finally, when I get back into it I'm likely to settle on a 10 gauge double just cuzz. I could get by with a 12, but a 10 just seems more "interesting."

 

[biliff]

Hevi-shot is available for handloading. While it ain't cheap it ain't quite as bad as some non-toxics. It is hard, so requires the use of a steel shot wad. Since its denser than lead, it works well at muzzleloader velocities. #6 Hevi-shot has good penetration on mallard size ducks out to 45 yards, based on my cartridge guns at 1250fps. In a cylinder choke muzzleloader, 1 1/8 oz of the stuff gives enough pattern density for 35 yard shooting with pleny of penetration. Patterns can be manipulated to a limitted extent by varying the number of petals on the wad with two petal giving the tightest patterns (at least for me).

 

[bigbore442001]

I really appreicate the advice. Today I stopped by the club fish pond. There are at least twenty five Canada geese and a pair of swans. Looking forward to September 15th. :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

Dandy!

Have you shot geese before? I always aim for the sweet spot under the wing right up against the body. Sure folds them convincingly, and that would be fun to do in front of a bunch of black powder skeptics, wouldn't it!

 

[bigbore442001]

Yes I have shot geese before but with a modern shotgun. This fall will be a first with BP . I sort of wished summer was already going by.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I was trying last fall but they were just to far for my liking so maybe this time :wink:
Britsmoothy.

 

[BrownBear]

Kind of a "two step" approach to getting close, but it's worked so well for me in circumstances like yours, I should pass it on. It's best on small waters for smaller groups of birds, so I think it fits.

I search out small locations with small groups of birds. Step one is to wait till no birds are around and add a small, low pile of branches or grass in a convenient location, then stay away for a week or so to let them get acquainted. Heck, I'd even put out the pile right now so that it's part of their normal surroundings by the time the season arrives.

Then on the fateful day I wait till the geese fly out in the morning, and while they're gone I put two decoys or no decoys into the right location and fold back my pile, lay down, cover myself with an appropriate piece of camo MESH, then pull the low pile back on top of the mesh. The mesh is important so you can see what's going on without moving.

Most times when the birds fly back in with no decoys on hand, they fly right in without circling. The two decoys will cause them to circle and require some calling, but that's part of the excitement, too. I'd try the decoys first, and if you stuff it, let the pond rest another week, then return with no decoys.

BTW- Sitting up and shooting while sitting flat on the ground requires practice. Shotguns simply don't swing well when the lower half of your body is solidly planted, and the tendency is to stop your swing. That can be especially bad if for some reason ignition is not instantaneous when you fire.

 

[barebackjack]

I have yet to do it, but its on my list.
My next build is going to be a smoothbore fusil, or a fowler.

I know a guy here that does it quite a bit. He was shooting bismuth, but can no longer get it in bulk. He told me not to risk shooting steel, even with a cup. He now shoots tungsten. Its really not any more expensive than centerfire tungsten loads which run roughly $3 a shell.

For awhile, he was able to get a special permit from the USFWS to shoot lead in his MLers, but he can no longer get the permit.

My build will most likely be of 16 gauge. We kill ALOT of geese and ducks, and rarely shoot over 25 yards. I would think with the right load, 30-40 yard kills shouldnt be that far fetched on ducks.

Just how "steel unsafe" are the modern MLer barrels made by colerain, rice, green mountain, etc?

 

[paulvallandigham]

They are soft enough that repeated firing of steel shot in them will score the barrels, and ruin any choke you put in them. We are all waiting for Heavishot, or Tungsten/matrix shot to become available in bulk for reloaders. Then we will be in better shape. In the meanwhile, some guys are scavenging shot from expensive commerical hulls. Others are using plastic shotcups with steel, bismuth, and other approved non-toxic shot to use their old guns. If you can restrict your shooting to 30 yards and under, you should have no problem killing birds. I have seen steel BBs bounce off canada geese when fired at 40 yards, but kill them cleanly at 30 yards.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I know a guy here that does it quite a bit. He was shooting bismuth, but can no longer get it in bulk.

There are a couple of people negotiating the rights to put bismuth back into production. The technology is apparently straightforward dripping for sizes up to #5 and doable but fussy for #4. Larger sizes apparently require different technology. The problem is a very well-written patent. In the mean time, see the thread http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/221746/post/new/#NEW
for a currently-available bore-friendly alternative called "Nice Shot" (plus a political side-track).

By the way, Hevishot has been available for reloading for a while, but it is much worse than steel shot for damaging barrels.

My build will most likely be of 16 gauge.

I love my 16ga double. At 7lbs, it's not the lightest thing, but I can load it from 3/4oz to 1.3/8oz shot loads.

We kill ALOT of geese and ducks, and rarely shoot over 25 yards. I would think with the right load, 30-40 yard kills shouldnt be that far fetched on ducks.

If you haven't already read the threads, you might want to do a search on the forum for discussion of Runnball's "tampon shotcups". I haven't had a chance to try them yet, but they look quite interesting. FWIW, in the interest of more descriptive nomenclature, I propose a pseudo-19th-century name of "Runnball's cottontail-drogue shot concentrator", and I have an idea for a completely-homemade and fully biodegradable version.

Joel

 

[KyFlintlock]

Post some pics this fall of your hunt bigbore, I hope you take a few canada geese with it!

:thumbsup:
Wess

 

[44-henry]

I've hunted a lot of waterfowl in North Dakota and killed my fair share of ducks and geese with muzzleloaders. I personally think the 16 ga would be a bit small for the task. Though it certainly would do the job. I think you would be alot happier with a 12, or better still, a 10.