I picked up a CVA 1851 .36 brass frame revolver. I read on other sites, that live firing is not reccomended! I understand a steel frame revolver will be tougher, but will the brass frames hold up?
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Brass Frame Revolvers! Are They Safe To Shoot?
- Thread starter Mulebrain
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Doc Arroyo
Greybeard
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Yes, but within factory limits. Some folks on another board were discussing magnum loads, 777 loads and multiple projectiles...hell those will beat a steel framed gun to death. I know, I inherited a pretty 1860 Army, that is a wall hanger only due to the frame and barrel beating it took from some really hot loads. Shoot light to normal loads and that brass frame will last a long time. 
eace:
eace:
That is what I figured. What is the proper load for the 1851 .36 navy in Pyrodex?
Yeh! not Tripple Seven ::
Yeh! not Tripple Seven ::
WV_Hillbilly
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Double Ditto what they both said...
just treat the brass frame revolver as you would like you were breaking in a new engine. Don't "overrev the engine, "accelerate too quickly", or "speed" and you'll be in good shape as will the revolver.
On the brass framed open top Colt style guns, I limit the .44 cal. to about 70-75% of maximum and round ball use only. On the brass framed Remingtons with top strap (or other models with top straps) I might go with 80%. I would not use Pyrodex P in the brass framed guns if you can find Black Powder to use. If I have to use the Pyrodex P, then I cut back by another 15% to start. I fill the extra space with a filler such as corn meal.
NOTE: The loads I use are safe in MY guns ONLY. I recommend that you follow the instructions included with your gun or those provided by the manufacturer. You assume all responsibility for YOUR loads and YOUR guns. I only stated what I do as an example and NOT as a loading recommendation for ANYONE else to use.
Safe Shooting First and Always!
WV_Hillbilly
High Power,
You sure your name ain't Hatchet Jack? J. Johnson took yer rifle wilst you wer nappin.
I have a .36 cal brass frame Colt and I've loaded 20 grains of Pyrodex P in it with out a problem. Thats about 10% less the max for that gun. I like to have something that can be useful for self defence if the unlikely occurs and if you go too light on the powder you end up with energies that are far too wimpy for defence purposes. Having said that, if all you want to do is punch paper than go light as you please or at least down to 15 grains.
I carry my revolvers hunting and fishing as back up. Not too concerned with 2 legged trouble but 4 legged critters can be a problem at times. Some people don't beleive in leshes for their dogs.
Don
You sure your name ain't Hatchet Jack? J. Johnson took yer rifle wilst you wer nappin.
I have a .36 cal brass frame Colt and I've loaded 20 grains of Pyrodex P in it with out a problem. Thats about 10% less the max for that gun. I like to have something that can be useful for self defence if the unlikely occurs and if you go too light on the powder you end up with energies that are far too wimpy for defence purposes. Having said that, if all you want to do is punch paper than go light as you please or at least down to 15 grains.
I carry my revolvers hunting and fishing as back up. Not too concerned with 2 legged trouble but 4 legged critters can be a problem at times. Some people don't beleive in leshes for their dogs.
Don
Na! While I was freezin my butt off :haha:
I have modern reproductions of the Griswold and Gunnison and the Spiller and Burr, Confederate .36 brass frame revolvers. Using 12 to 15 grains of 3F works just fine with no signs of stress or wear on the revolvers. Lots of smoke, moderate recoil plus great groups at 50 and 25 yards.
While I do clean, I let the brass tarnish and that gives the revolvers a nice old look.
While I do clean, I let the brass tarnish and that gives the revolvers a nice old look.
harris_304
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I have a brass frame .36 CVA 1851 too. I load it 18 to 20 grains using Proydex RS. Couldn't find the P where I live.
Someone on a forum told me that the RS would work and produce
less pressure on the brass frame. :agree:
Someone on a forum told me that the RS would work and produce
less pressure on the brass frame. :agree:
JackAubrey
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I have been told, but not personally confirmed, that a brass frame revolver will"shoot out of time" after an unspecific amount of usage.Apparently the cylinder and the frame will not mate up correctly?As far as I know this is hearsay.Has anyone else heard this and is it fact or myth?Best Regards,Jack.
Rat
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I believe that with a constant diet of full power loads, and a lot of shooting a brass frame will go out of time. (but can be re-timed) but if used with light loads they will go forever I believe. I've always thought that a brass frame gun would make a nice small game/survival sidearm.
My experience with 777 in revolvers was just plain bad news. Pyrodex is ok, but if you really want the best of all worlds shoot Swiss Black Powder.
Swiss is a little hot, so if you want bulk, and mild pressure just use ffg instead of fffg. My Navy Remington shoots 1.5" groups at 20 yards with about 20 grains of that. Recoil is mild.
If you want power, you can get it with Swiss fffg for sure, but not too much as with 777. IMHO a full, compressed chamber full of 777 is just too much for an open top revolver.
All things considered I think brass frame revolvers are medium load revolvers, and there's nothing wrong with that. There is no safety issue.
Rat
My experience with 777 in revolvers was just plain bad news. Pyrodex is ok, but if you really want the best of all worlds shoot Swiss Black Powder.
Swiss is a little hot, so if you want bulk, and mild pressure just use ffg instead of fffg. My Navy Remington shoots 1.5" groups at 20 yards with about 20 grains of that. Recoil is mild.
If you want power, you can get it with Swiss fffg for sure, but not too much as with 777. IMHO a full, compressed chamber full of 777 is just too much for an open top revolver.
All things considered I think brass frame revolvers are medium load revolvers, and there's nothing wrong with that. There is no safety issue.
Rat
Why do they state on this site, that actual live firing with brass frame revolvers is not reccomended?
http://fcsutler.com/fccwrevolvers.asp
What is up with this?
http://fcsutler.com/fccwrevolvers.asp
What is up with this?
Guest
You will discover, over the course of time, that some people know a good deal about guns and very little about shooting.
The reverse is also true.
:imo:
They probably say not to shoot brass framed C&B guns for the same reason they say a brass framed 1860 style .44 caliber Colt is a "Colt 1851 Reb Navy". (The Reb's never made a copy of the 1860 Colt in .36 or .44, and as I recall, with the exception of the Dance Brothers, never made a .44 cal C&B revolver.).
Ignorance.
And lawyers I suppose.
IMO, there is no reason not to shoot a brass framed gun as long as you remember brass is weaker than steel so the loads need to be reduced.
Most of us don't depend on C&B guns for defense and a 15 grain powder load in a .36 or a 20 grain load in a .44 makes a good bang, a lot of smoke and a lot of fun for plinking or just putting holes in a paper plate. ::
By the way, a 15 grain load of Pyrodex P in a .36 cal will produce about 728 FPS velocity (670FPS with Goex FFFg) and a .44 cal with 20 grains of Pyrodex P is about 740 FPS (640 with Goex FFFg). Clearly neither of these loads are to be taken lightly. IMO, both could be lethal to man or beast. :shocking:
Ignorance.
And lawyers I suppose.
IMO, there is no reason not to shoot a brass framed gun as long as you remember brass is weaker than steel so the loads need to be reduced.
Most of us don't depend on C&B guns for defense and a 15 grain powder load in a .36 or a 20 grain load in a .44 makes a good bang, a lot of smoke and a lot of fun for plinking or just putting holes in a paper plate. ::
By the way, a 15 grain load of Pyrodex P in a .36 cal will produce about 728 FPS velocity (670FPS with Goex FFFg) and a .44 cal with 20 grains of Pyrodex P is about 740 FPS (640 with Goex FFFg). Clearly neither of these loads are to be taken lightly. IMO, both could be lethal to man or beast. :shocking:
CrackStock
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At the risk of annoying several of you, I have to ask... With the knowledge that there were very few of these made originally, why does anyone want one? They are certainly over produced today, so they are disproportionately represented. They perpetuate a dishonest picture of what was used.
The price of a steel version is only a few dollars more.
CS
The price of a steel version is only a few dollars more.
CS
Russ T Frizzen
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My guess is that a lot of Confederate re-enactors want them. The Griswold & Gunnison and the Spiller & Burr are common repros that would fit a Southern personna. Some folks collect repro C&B revolvers and others just like the look of them and enjoy shooting them. To a lot of us, they were/are weaker, less powerful curiosities. To others they are a tangible tie to a long ago time. And, yes, there are definitely more of the new ones than there ever were of the originals.
Well, for me, asking "why does anyone want one? They are certainly over produced today" could be talking about an 1967 AC Cobra with the 427 ci V8 in it.
The fact that there are more of them now than were originally made doesn't make me Not want to own one, even if it is only a replica.
To me, the brass framed C&B guns that are fair recreations of the Confederates Griswold & Gunnison or Spiller & Burr are interesting to own from a historic point of view, and interesting to shoot. For me, that's enough reason to own some of them.
I even went so far as to buy one of the brass framed .36 caliber recreation with a octagon barrel. What's so unusual about that? The real Confederate recreations of the 1851 Colt were almost all round barrel guns to ease production.
The firm of Schneider & Glassic departed from the round barrel used by other Confederate Companys and made a few guns with the same octagon barrel that the original Colt had.
After a few modifications to the reproduction, it looks just about like the real thing (abet a little worn).
The fact that there are more of them now than were originally made doesn't make me Not want to own one, even if it is only a replica.
To me, the brass framed C&B guns that are fair recreations of the Confederates Griswold & Gunnison or Spiller & Burr are interesting to own from a historic point of view, and interesting to shoot. For me, that's enough reason to own some of them.
I even went so far as to buy one of the brass framed .36 caliber recreation with a octagon barrel. What's so unusual about that? The real Confederate recreations of the 1851 Colt were almost all round barrel guns to ease production.
The firm of Schneider & Glassic departed from the round barrel used by other Confederate Companys and made a few guns with the same octagon barrel that the original Colt had.
After a few modifications to the reproduction, it looks just about like the real thing (abet a little worn).
WV_Hillbilly
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Actually, many of the brass framed replicas that do represent real Confederate guns are not that easy to locate for purchase--at least I have found that to be true. Also the brass framed '51 Navies are generally sold at a much lower price, than ANY other cap-n-ball revolver PERIOD. Doesn't make it right, or historically correct, but it does allow many more people to have the chance to get into cap-n-ball shooting for less $.
It's kinda harsh to "damn someone" just for having less money to spend on a hobby. And if you start comparing metallurgy, weren't many of the 19th century originals just using cast iron/steel instead of (even) mild low carbon forged steels? "Some" (not all) brass is just as strong as some of the cast iron(s) or steel(s) that would have been proper on the originals.
But yes, historically, many of these brass-framed copies are just NOT correct and didn't exist EVER. Doesn't mean that we can't enjoy them--even at reduced loading and taking more care of them.
I think Uberti might still make a Griswold & Gunnison replica with open top brass frame and round barrel. I had a chance to buy one that was "in the white" for $65 about a year ago, it was a Navy Arms import. That pistol is one of the few that would be historically proper. The Spiller & Burr has a top strap and should be brass, but beyond those two guns, that should be about it (except for maybe the early Rem. pocket pistols had some brass frames--but they weren't typically a "Southern gun".)
Just shoot wisely with them, and you'll be Shooting Safely!
WV_Hillbilly
It's kinda harsh to "damn someone" just for having less money to spend on a hobby. And if you start comparing metallurgy, weren't many of the 19th century originals just using cast iron/steel instead of (even) mild low carbon forged steels? "Some" (not all) brass is just as strong as some of the cast iron(s) or steel(s) that would have been proper on the originals.
But yes, historically, many of these brass-framed copies are just NOT correct and didn't exist EVER. Doesn't mean that we can't enjoy them--even at reduced loading and taking more care of them.
I think Uberti might still make a Griswold & Gunnison replica with open top brass frame and round barrel. I had a chance to buy one that was "in the white" for $65 about a year ago, it was a Navy Arms import. That pistol is one of the few that would be historically proper. The Spiller & Burr has a top strap and should be brass, but beyond those two guns, that should be about it (except for maybe the early Rem. pocket pistols had some brass frames--but they weren't typically a "Southern gun".)
Just shoot wisely with them, and you'll be Shooting Safely!
WV_Hillbilly
Russ T Frizzen
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I have a G&G that resembles Zonie's photograph. It has dings and scratches and worn spots all over it. The brass has taken on a patina that looks 140 years old. It shoots well and has a nice balance. And everytime I take it out, I think about the brave men who carried the originals into harm's way. For me, that over-rides any alleged short comings the brass frame may have.
