breech and barrel inlet question

[tnlonghunter]

Okay. this is the first of what I assume will be many questions over the next few months. I've inlet the tang and breech of my York rifle. However, there is a substantial curvature of the stock. It is a little low at the breech, warps up about a 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch about 3 1/2 inches forward of the breech, and then warps down to about 1/4 inch down at the point of the muzzle. So here's the problem. If I clamp the barrle to the stock right at the breech it fits great. If I don't the weight of the barrel makes it tilt downward at the muzzle and the breech sits about 1/15 of an inch above the inlet. The barrel fits tight enough that I can press it into the stock all the way down and it stays in place all the way down it's length. So, how much would y'all think it safe to scrape the barrel channel down and at what point do I let it be? Also, with the curvature of the stock being what it is, will there be substantial downward pressure on the barrel?

I know that's a lot of questions, but I know that the barrel has to be in right before anything else, and I know that once wood is gone, you can't put it back (not really). So any advice would be great!

 

[Stophel]

I take it this is a precarve stock.

Having the fore end curve downward is NOT uncommon. Unless there's something else wierd about it, clamp the barrel in place and there you have it. Don't worry about the warpage.

 

[Zonie]

"... If I don't the weight of the barrel makes it tilt downward at the muzzle and the breech sits about 1/15 of an inch above the inlet...."
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I sounds like you have the butt clamped tightly in the vise so the barrel weight is pulling the forestock down.
What is happening when the stock is not clamped but the barrel is installed? That is the condition the gun will live in so that is how you should be viewing what is going on.

"The barrel fits tight enough that I can press it into the stock all the way down and it stays in place all the way down it's length."
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IMO, the barrel should not be pressed into the stock. The sides of the channel should be large enough for the barrel to easily be inserted and removed.
Too tight of a fit here will do several things, all of them bad. It may split the forend while your building the gun because you will remove and reinstall that barrel many times.
When you finish the wood and it swells from the oils you will not be able to install or remove the barrel.

As for the up/down condition of the stock to the barrel, after the barrel channel is opened up so the barrel fits easily, you should be able to squeeze the wood upward until the inside of the channel contacts the bottom of the barrel. Hopefully if this is done in three places (about where the barrel pins will live) it will be straight enough so it is not noticable.
Of course, before the gun is finished you will be leveling the sides of the forestock out by removing some wood so they look like they are parallel with the barrel.

I hope this makes some sense to you because, I am just flying by instinct here, not being able to actually see what is going on. :hmm:

 

[aragorn]

I think these replies cover it. If you clamp in the whole barrel, using three or four clamps, you'll probably see the warpage disappear. Are you screwing in the tang yet with a temporary wood screw? Once you've got the screw and clamps in place, you might be able to see if you need to do any further inletting in the barrel channel by pressing the barrel against it between the clamps to see if there's any 'give.' It was the most tedious job for me getting the barrel in right, so persevere with it even if it seems to take ages!

Did you use inletting black for inletting the barrel? I found it helped a lot, though it is messy.

Once you've got the barrel in and pinned, keep it there - it will prevent further warpage and, more importantly, protect the fragile fore end from breakage.

I was at exactly the same stage as you about six months ago, and now have my Chambers York just about ready for final wood finishing. I'll take some photos of it 'in the white' in case you have more questions on the way, as I probably went through all the same teething troubles as you!

 

[tnlonghunter]

Thanks guys. Out of curiosity, if there is "give" in the forestock, what exactly is the problem? I know that it doesn't constitute first rate workmanship (and I intend on eliminating as much "give" as is reasonable for a well put-together gun), but are ther any significant problems that arise?

 

[aragorn]

All I can say is it feels nice and solid when there's little or no give in the forestock fit. (If you do continue to have give between the pins that you can't remedy by scraping the channel, I guess you could fix it with tiny amounts of bedding material).

I've already had experience of the barrel/forestock fit shifting with changing humidity through the year, so we probably have to accept a certain amount of give that might develop in time (the reason for making the pin holes in the lugs into small horizontal slots).

I don't think a small amount of give can be an issue as far as the functionality of the gun is concerned (unlike the breech fit, which needs to be solid).

Others have more experience than me on this though, as I'm only a few months ahead of you!

 

[Stophel]

If you haven't draw filed the barrel yet, do it now. The tightness will disappear.

 

[54JNoll]

Wood is no differnet than many other matierials. As the wood is slimmed down internal stresses can be relieved and alow the stock to shift or warp slightly. However, the forestock will be very thin when done so the barrel really protects the forestock instead of the forestock supporting the barrel.

I agree that if the barrel has not yet been draw filed that you should do this next as it will likely eliminate or minimize the effect. However, once the barrel is pinned to the stock I double you will be able to feel any shifting. You can also use a little bedding compound to see the high spot in the barrel channel if you wish to remove some of that too.

Once you get the barrel pined to the stock leave it that way as much as possible while building and beween building sessions. As pointed out it both protects the stock and minimizes further warping or shifting. You can bend the stock by applying linseed oil and heat. Just be careful as a littel warpage is better than a broken forestock.

 

[Stophel]

When drilling the tenons/stock for pins, clamp the barrel down TIGHT into the stock to make durn sure that the barrel is all the way down. Clamp it right there at the spot where the tenon is and drill it. Fit the pin and go to the next one. Put the pin in the last tenon you just did before drilling the next one, that way you know it will be held down there correctly. Keep on down the line. I will start at the breech end and go forward, fitting each tenon to the barrel, then fitting the tenon to the stock and drilling it one at a time.

Even with tenons slotted, the barrel won't shift back and forth (and it should never shift up and down....which can happen between the tenons if they are too far apart), the tang screw should keep it anchored to the rear. I actually usually don't slot the rear tenon, only the front three. Unless the wood is REALLY curly, it isn't going to change much in length over 9 inches or so... If your wood is exceptionally curly (which I generally avoid anyway), you'd be best to slot the rear one too just in case...

 

[tnlonghunter]

Thanks guys! I ended up needing to move the barrel about 1/4 inch backwards to make the vent miss the breech plug face. So, I may not exactly be starting over, but alot of the fitting of the breech will have to be redone. Anyway, this will be fun. Wish I'd noticed that sooner, but it's too late now. New question: if there are spots where, due to having to move the barrel, there are spots where there is too much wood removed (for the sake of argument, lets say it's at the tang :redface: ), how would you recommend filling that space? I'm going to be leaving the barrel and lock bright, so could I fill it with solder and file it smooth? Wood filler (looks ugly I guess)? I feel pretty dumb having missed that detail until now, but regrets won't fix it.

 

[Zonie]

I assume you have a flaired tang so when it is moved back, it will leave a gap on both sides?

Yes, you could build up a solderd surface on the sides of the tang but if you are going to brown/blue the barrel, the solder will not change color. That would leave a soldered color band on both sides of the tang.
The worse part of using something like solder is it is so soft it will be damaged just from installing and removing the barrel while your building the gun.

There are several epoxy types which are used for "glass bedding" barrels. Some of these can be dyed with dark colors to match the wood.
If you choose to try one of these, I would recommend waiting until the gun is finished and the stock is stained so you will know what color and how much of it to use.

 

[tnlonghunter]

I'm planning on leaving the barrel bright (no brown or blue), and I'd probably put the solder on at the final installation. However, the bedding compound may be smarter given the soft nature of the solder. Thanks for the info.

 

[DrTimboone]

Depending on the size and logation of the gap you may be able to peen the tang so that it fills or at least partially fills the gaps thereby requiring no, or less filler.

 

[aragorn]

Instead of solder, my advice is to glue in slivers of wood if you have really noticeable gaps around the tang. Cut the slivers from the edge of the spare piece of maple included in the kit, then glue them in like a wedge while the barrel's in. You can then file the protruding bit down carefully to make a flush fit. Once stained, you might hardly notice they're there and I think it would look better than solder.

Only do this once you've got the barrel pinned in and the tang screwed down, so you can file down the wood to the final fit.