I’m a first-timer trying to build a smooth bore rifle from a “kit” that as far as I can tell has one of those barrels that wasn’t breeched correctly by the manufacturer (not surprising as that’s my usual luck). I’ve read the books and tutorials and am still nervous about trying to rebreech it myself. The barrel is octagonal to round and already has the tennons in place as well as the front sight. Is this a service that anyone provides? If so, I’d like to arrange to have the barrel breeched by someone with experience ”“ that way I know it’ll be done right.
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Breeching services?
- Thread starter gwill
- Start date
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That's not a typical issue,,
Questions arise;
What's wrong with the current breech? (photo?)
Who made and Breeched the barrel?
Most will stand behind their work and replace/repair anything wrong.
Questions arise;
What's wrong with the current breech? (photo?)
Who made and Breeched the barrel?
Most will stand behind their work and replace/repair anything wrong.
The breechplug is properly fit (and witness marked) on the outside but does not mate with the shoulder of the bore on the inside. It's off enough that inletting compound doesn't transfer when I pull the plug, apply compound and reinstall it. My calipers also indicate there's a small gap when I measure the depth of the plug and compare that to the distance the shoulder is from the end of the barrel. I'm no expert in these things but I understand this happens from time to time so I'm looking to sort the issue out rather than go back to the supplier.
Should look like this when you color the breechface, put it in, then remove it. Otherwise, it is not breeched correctly.
IMHO, no use sending it back to Colerain, as the ones I have sent to them were not breeched correctly when they came back. This is one I rebreeched when it came back. I think they machine breech them & check the outside fit & never take it back off.... About 1/2 of them I have used were breeched correctly & I have used over 25 of their barrels.
Now the barrels shoot good ! :thumbsup: don't misunderstand me on that. I have not had any issues in accuracy on them, and have never had a complaint on any that I have built & sold.... Just poor breeching jobs on the ones I have gotten from them & if I use one I figure in that I will have to rework the breech.
If you want me to look..... I did have a piece of barrel here that is scrap. I can see if I still have it & if so, send it to you, you get a breechplug & practice on the scrap one, then do yours. Yes it takes some time to do one, but that is the only way to learn, do it.
Keith Lisle
IMHO, no use sending it back to Colerain, as the ones I have sent to them were not breeched correctly when they came back. This is one I rebreeched when it came back. I think they machine breech them & check the outside fit & never take it back off.... About 1/2 of them I have used were breeched correctly & I have used over 25 of their barrels.
Now the barrels shoot good ! :thumbsup: don't misunderstand me on that. I have not had any issues in accuracy on them, and have never had a complaint on any that I have built & sold.... Just poor breeching jobs on the ones I have gotten from them & if I use one I figure in that I will have to rework the breech.
If you want me to look..... I did have a piece of barrel here that is scrap. I can see if I still have it & if so, send it to you, you get a breechplug & practice on the scrap one, then do yours. Yes it takes some time to do one, but that is the only way to learn, do it.
Keith Lisle
Roundball - Thank you for the reference.
And Keith you are right - the best (only) way for me to learn this is to do it. So if you can find the piece of barrel I'll be glad to pay the shipping, then I'll get a breech plug and have at it.
And Keith you are right - the best (only) way for me to learn this is to do it. So if you can find the piece of barrel I'll be glad to pay the shipping, then I'll get a breech plug and have at it.
Just a note, few barrel makers do attempt to get a perfect breeching. Imagine buying round stock, deep drilling a hole, reaming it, rifling it, planing it to a contour, boring the breech threads, threading the breech, making a breechplug and fitting it then selling the product for $175-250 depending on the profile. They are not going to spend an hour getting the perfect fit, which is about the minimum when filing and using transfer. The problem is re-fitting a barrel already stamped on the bottom flats and with a witness mark in place, because now you have to lose a whole thread.
ApprenticeBuilder
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Birddog6 said:
After following a few of his posts I'm gonna say nope, he did not check the fit and finish of the custom breech job.
Herb
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There is another way. Don't know the diameter of your breech plug, but you can place a shim between the plug and the seat in the barrel. One old builder said to use a dime. It fits a 3/4 size plug if I remember correctly. Just measured several, and they are .700 in diameter and about .050 thick with the ridge. One can be filed thin enough to be what you need and filed smaller to be 5/8". The alloy probably is resistant to corrosion or rust. But I have seen this done. I think I even did this to a Colerain barrel once, the last one of them I bought because of the breech plug fit. I would certainly fit this before refitting a breech plug one turn deeper, although I have done that, too. If any more experienced builders have doubts about this shim, speak up.
Actually, I like the idea of a softer metal shim.
If I were to design a extreme pressure joint I wouldn't hesitate to install a softer metal seal to seat against a shoulder like is found where the bore meets the breech threads.
It would produce a gas tight joint where the pressure is and could be easily held in place by a threaded (breech) plug.
That doesn't say I've done this.
When fitting a breech plug to a barrel I use the old fashioned black inletting compound or blue dykem to assure I have a 100 percent contact between the face of the plug and the shoulder in the barrel.
If I were to design a extreme pressure joint I wouldn't hesitate to install a softer metal seal to seat against a shoulder like is found where the bore meets the breech threads.
It would produce a gas tight joint where the pressure is and could be easily held in place by a threaded (breech) plug.
That doesn't say I've done this.
When fitting a breech plug to a barrel I use the old fashioned black inletting compound or blue dykem to assure I have a 100 percent contact between the face of the plug and the shoulder in the barrel.
gwill said:
I found it. It is a piece of A-36 Colerain barrel. You will need a breechplug for that or a 5/8 x 18 breechplug.
Email me your mailing address & I will mail it to you. Put Barrel Piece in the subject line so it doesn't go to spam. [email protected]
Keith Lisle
Keith - thank you again for your kind offer. I've sent you an e-mail.
I've played around with the idea of using a dime as a shim. Turns out a dime is just thicker than the gap. So with a little filing and fitting I was able to insert the dime and refit the breechplug. Once the plug was tightened the first time the dime seemed to conform to the inside of the bore and it is in there tight. I think I'd have to drill holes in it to get it out. Photos below. Please let me know what you think.
I've played around with the idea of using a dime as a shim. Turns out a dime is just thicker than the gap. So with a little filing and fitting I was able to insert the dime and refit the breechplug. Once the plug was tightened the first time the dime seemed to conform to the inside of the bore and it is in there tight. I think I'd have to drill holes in it to get it out. Photos below. Please let me know what you think.
True. You be looking at the back of a dime. I'd a filed it flat if I took this route to make it easier to swipe clean.
Herb
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You got it perfect. You can look at the breech plug face (dime) with a strong light, such as a Streamlight stylus LED (Radio Shack for one, about $15). If the dime is black and not shiny after extensive shooting (assuming you did not file the face flat), you can clean the dime with a Fouling Scraper, which will probably eventually cut the dime flat, or a brush plug-face fouling cleaner. But I don't think the dime will corrode nor fouling build up even if not scraped, so there should be no problem. I never scrape or clean my breech plug faces. Your problem is solved.
In the last few years some builders have advanced the opinion that the breach plug must seat against the shoulder on the inside of the barrel. For hundreds of years this was not the case. Although this may be ideal history has shown it is not necessary. I have worked on a lot of original antique firearms. I have some breach plugs in my shop that were removed from originals that are over 200 years old and have had an extreme amount of use. They show absolutely no sign of failure nor do they appear to give trouble with further use. They never seated against a shoulder in the bore. In fact, there is no shoulder in the bore of these barrels. Note that these plugs were very tight fit. The metal involved is wrought iron or Damascus. Do as you will. I would not worry as long as there is no blow by around the plug. Proof it.
”“”“”“In my 55 years of gunbuilding and gunsmithing I have only seen one dangerous breach plug. It was in a African trade gun and was dangerous when installed. It was so loose that it would almost fall out. The saving grace was the fact that the gun was so poorly built that the frizzen would not spark so it probably would rarely fire. I paid $12.00 for it in 1960. I got a refund.
”“”“”“In my 55 years of gunbuilding and gunsmithing I have only seen one dangerous breach plug. It was in a African trade gun and was dangerous when installed. It was so loose that it would almost fall out. The saving grace was the fact that the gun was so poorly built that the frizzen would not spark so it probably would rarely fire. I paid $12.00 for it in 1960. I got a refund.
Jerry is 100% correct. There were & are old ones done this way with no seat at all.
But everyone has there Druthers. I'd druther this or that way..... :idunno:
It all boils down to this question:
Do you want it to seat & have the barrel clean all the way to the breech & including the breech ?
Or
Do you want a place at the breech you cannot clean ?
I am not saying it will not work.
I am not saying it will not be safe to shoot.
I am not saying there were not old rifle built that way, and some today done this way.
How you breech it is totally up to you, as it is your build.
However, IMHO, if you have a gap there at the breech, there is no way you can properly clean out that gap or groove at the end of the barrel. That leaves a potential for rust to start.
I am saying there are some better ways of doing things, than were done 2-300 years ago.
And to me, barrel breeching is one of them. If not, none of the barrels being built today would be seated......
It is all depending on how in depth you want to get into that particular part of the build.
If someone told me ALL old rifles had the tang screws just wood screws & none of them went into the triggerplate. That is fine. Mine are going into the triggerplate if at all possible, regardless of how the old ones were.
Keith Lisle
But everyone has there Druthers. I'd druther this or that way..... :idunno:
It all boils down to this question:
Do you want it to seat & have the barrel clean all the way to the breech & including the breech ?
Or
Do you want a place at the breech you cannot clean ?
I am not saying it will not work.
I am not saying it will not be safe to shoot.
I am not saying there were not old rifle built that way, and some today done this way.
How you breech it is totally up to you, as it is your build.
However, IMHO, if you have a gap there at the breech, there is no way you can properly clean out that gap or groove at the end of the barrel. That leaves a potential for rust to start.
I am saying there are some better ways of doing things, than were done 2-300 years ago.
And to me, barrel breeching is one of them. If not, none of the barrels being built today would be seated......
It is all depending on how in depth you want to get into that particular part of the build.
If someone told me ALL old rifles had the tang screws just wood screws & none of them went into the triggerplate. That is fine. Mine are going into the triggerplate if at all possible, regardless of how the old ones were.
Keith Lisle
