Brown Bess stock

[Allenby]

Dunlop and David Keck are both first rate. I have dealt with both of them in recent weeks and they were both at the CLA convention in Lexington. Don’t give up trying to reach them.

 

[Artificer]

Agree Gus.

I‘ve spoken to Dan at Dunlap about copying a long land stock in the past, he’s very hesitant to do it.

Stocking making is a dying art, there’s just so little money or profit in it, that most wont’ do the work

I completely understand! In Dan's shoes, I would not do it unless someone provided a good Pattern and was willing to buy 10 or more stocks at a time like Loyalist Dave mentioned. Then the onus of retail selling the stocks would be on the guy who made the pattern and would then sell the stocks to customers. This may or probably require the guy who bought the 10 stocks be willing and able to fit some stocks for people who don't have the ability to do the work. Of course if it required such work, that would add to the price and make it less desirable, unless someone in a say a reenactment unit would do it for free to Unit members.

Gus

 

[Flinter 2]

The biggest problem with those period muzzle loaders made in India and other venues in that area of the world besides the quality of the materials being used is that they are usually made by hand using common wood working and metal working hand tools, they are a cottage industry and most are made one at a time by one person using a very vague set of plans.
The parts are not interchangeable, no two lock plates or internal parts are the same, even the springs are individually forged to mate with the hand made locks and will not fit other locks.
So, most likely if you break a part, you can't order a new one, you have to find a gun smith that will be willing to make you a new part, and you have to be willing to pay for his/her time and talent.
Most good period gun builders use precarved/ pre inletted stock blanks that need very little fitting, if you want a new stock for your India made M/L you're going to have to have one made from a raw plank, the cost of the stock wood and the labor of a good gun builder will likely cost you as much and probably more than just buying a new India made gun and junking most of the parts of your old one.

Sorry, I've seen some good looking and good functioning India made muzzle loaders, but when a part breaks or wears out, you're kind of stuck with a fancy looking club.

 

[FlinterNick]

The biggest problem with those period muzzle loaders made in India and other venues in that area of the world besides the quality of the materials being used is that they are usually made by hand using common wood working and metal working hand tools, they are a cottage industry and most are made one at a time by one person using a very vague set of plans.
The parts are not interchangeable, no two lock plates or internal parts are the same, even the springs are individually forged to mate with the hand made locks and will not fit other locks.
So, most likely if you break a part, you can't order a new one, you have to find a gun smith that will be willing to make you a new part, and you have to be willing to pay for his/her time and talent.
Most good period gun builders use precarved/ pre inletted stock blanks that need very little fitting, if you want a new stock for your India made M/L you're going to have to have one made from a raw plank, the cost of the stock wood and the labor of a good gun builder will likely cost you as much and probably more than just buying a new India made gun and junking most of the parts of your old one.

Sorry, I've seen some good looking and good functioning India made muzzle loaders, but when a part breaks or wears out, you're kind of stuck with a fancy looking club.

Agree, the Indian made Brown Bess Muskets already don’t fit into the specific pattern they‘re intended for, and its usually the barrel dimensions that will throw off the Ability to re-stock. Most first model Brown Bess muskets had a breech around 1.4-1.5 in diameter.

 

[Leadball loader]

Agree, the Indian made Brown Bess Muskets already don’t fit into the specific pattern they‘re intended for, and its usually the barrel dimensions that will throw off the Ability to re-stock. Most first model Brown Bess muskets had a breech around 1.4-1.5 in diameter.

I seem to recall that original BB were made in a similar fashion and that armorers could not simply change parts without considerable work in many cases when repairs were required. Those originals were manufactured before the introduction of modern industry techniques that allowed truly interchangeable parts.
The Indian guns are far from high end but are functional and usable with some better than others. Dimensions are close enough to originals to make them acceptable for reenactors with a limited budget.
LBL

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The parts are not interchangeable, no two lock plates or internal parts are the same, even the springs are individually forged to mate with the hand made locks and will not fit other locks.

So, most likely if you break a part, you can't order a new one, you have to find a gun smith that will be willing to make you a new part, and you have to be willing to pay for his/her time and talent.

WHICH is actually authentic, in a mildly annoying sort of way, but the parts don't often break.
LD

 

[Artificer]

WHICH is actually authentic, in a mildly annoying sort of way, but the parts don't often break.
LD

Which begs the question, can these two parts be made to fit a majority of the India Brown Bess locks in use?

Tumbler for 1746 Willets ~ First Model Brown Bess, precision turned 4140 steel, hardened, tempered, made in the USA. - Track of the Wolf

Sear for 1746 Willets ~ First Model Brown Bess lock, precision cut 4140 steel, hardened, tempered, made in the USA. - Track of the Wolf

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OR..., would it be simpler to get those two parts, as a set, to the many India based lock makers (for the folks "at home" there are several places the India musket parts are made) ..., get them to make the lock plates to take these parts, and thus establish a gage or standard, for the tumbler hole size and position as well as the sear screw location, size, and threads? Thus the rest of the lock might be a problem but at least those two parts would always fit or be very very close. No?

LD

 

[Artificer]

OR..., would it be simpler to get those two parts, as a set, to the many India based lock makers (for the folks "at home" there are several places the India musket parts are made) ..., get them to make the lock plates to take these parts, and thus establish a gage or standard, for the tumbler hole size and position as well as the sear screw location, size, and threads? Thus the rest of the lock might be a problem but at least those two parts would always fit or be very very close. No?

LD

Yes it would be nice if those two parts were sent in bunches to India and locks made using them, but I doubt that is going to happen.

Are you saying there are folks here in the U.S. that are making generic replacement parts like these for the India Bess's?

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

Which begs the question, can these two parts be made to fit a majority of the India Brown Bess locks in use?

Tumbler for 1746 Willets ~ First Model Brown Bess, precision turned 4140 steel, hardened, tempered, made in the USA. - Track of the Wolf

Sear for 1746 Willets ~ First Model Brown Bess lock, precision cut 4140 steel, hardened, tempered, made in the USA. - Track of the Wolf

Gus

The tumbler for the Track of the Wolf lock set is CNC machined, not casted very difficult to change or work around on a different lock, I wouldn’t recommend it. Its also slightly smaller than the Rifle Shoppe’s 1740 Tumbler. The sear spring is just about the only part that can interchange, but not without some attention to the screw hole. Pedersoli’s sear springs are die formed and can be more easily shapped to fit another bess lock.

I’ve had a lot of luck replacing older pedersoli Grice Lock parts (1970’S ERA lock, not the current production) and Miroku Bess lock parts with Third model casted parts from the Rifle Shoppe and Butch’s Antique Gun Parts. Mainspring, Tumbler and Bridal and sear all work rather well.

For some reason third model parts seem to work the best, maybe Pedersoli and Miroku copied a third model and modified the rest to look like a 1755 pattern lock ?

 

[Artificer]

The tumbler for the Track of the Wolf lock set is CNC machined, not casted very difficult to change or work around on a different lock, I wouldn’t recommend it. Its also slightly smaller than the Rifle Shoppe’s 1740 Tumbler. The sear spring is just about the only part that can interchange, but not without some attention to the screw hole. Pedersoli’s sear springs are die formed and can be more easily shapped to fit another bess lock.

I’ve had a lot of luck replacing older pedersoli Grice Lock parts (1970’S ERA lock, not the current production) and Miroku Bess lock parts with Third model casted parts from the Rifle Shoppe and Butch’s Antique Gun Parts. Mainspring, Tumbler and Bridal and sear all work rather well.

For some reason third model parts seem to work the best, maybe Pedersoli and Miroku copied a third model and modified the rest to look like a 1755 pattern lock ?

Good info. Thanks!

Gus

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Are you saying there are folks here in the U.S. that are making generic replacement parts like these for the India Bess's?

Alas, no. If the India lock makers standardized themselves as I suggested, then the current parts from the Rifle Shoppe would work, OR if they used Pedersoli Parts, that too would work. BUT..., They use their parts, and you can't use replacement tumblers.

I've not tried to "adapt" a replacement tumbler to an Indian lock plate. I guess I should see if the main hole is small enough to be enlarged (and at the same time kept round ) to accept an OTC tumbler... which then means the **** has to fit the new tumbler and I think the square hole in the **** is "off" if you try to use it on an Italian or American made tumbler. Then of course you have the sear placement problem. AFTER all of that would the lock fit the original mortise ???

LD

 

[Artificer]

Alas, no. If the India lock makers standardized themselves as I suggested, then the current parts from the Rifle Shoppe would work, OR if they used Pedersoli Parts, that too would work. BUT..., They use their parts, and you can't use replacement tumblers.

I've not tried to "adapt" a replacement tumbler to an Indian lock plate. I guess I should see if the main hole is small enough to be enlarged (and at the same time kept round ) to accept an OTC tumbler... which then means the **** has to fit the new tumbler and I think the square hole in the **** is "off" if you try to use it on an Italian or American made tumbler. Then of course you have the sear placement problem. AFTER all of that would the lock fit the original mortise ???

LD

There are tool and spare parts lists in Bailey's works, that were sent here during the FIW and the AWI for use by their Artificers/Armorers to repair the King's Arms.

The number of tumblers, sears, bridles, cocks, etc. is pretty large; though they don't specify if all the parts were only to repair the Long Land Pattern Muskets, Short Land Muskets during the AWI, as well as Carbine and Pistol Locks.

I imagine the parts were oversize and un-hardened, as locks came from a number of different contractors and also would not have been interchangeable.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

OR..., would it be simpler to get those two parts, as a set, to the many India based lock makers (for the folks "at home" there are several places the India musket parts are made) ..., get them to make the lock plates to take these parts, and thus establish a gage or standard, for the tumbler hole size and position as well as the sear screw location, size, and threads? Thus the rest of the lock might be a problem but at least those two parts would always fit or be very very close. No?

LD

There are tool and spare parts lists in Bailey's works, that were sent here during the FIW and the AWI for use by their Artificers/Armorers to repair the King's Arms.

The number of tumblers, sears, bridles, cocks, etc. is pretty large; though they don't specify if all the parts were only to repair the Long Land Pattern Muskets, Short Land Muskets during the AWI, as well as Carbine and Pistol Locks.

I imagine the parts were oversize and un-hardened, as locks came from a number of different contractors and also would not have been interchangeable.

Gus

Peter Dyson in the UK actually has a blank bess tumbler that he says is a copy of a surplus tumbler. The wrought Iron made parts would likely lose hardness after extensive Use. I’d imagine Bridals didn’t break often.

Springs could be forged in the field with flat stock By the armor.

From reading Bailey and Goldsteins book it seems like Not many parts were replaced.

 

[FlinterNick]

Alas, no. If the India lock makers standardized themselves as I suggested, then the current parts from the Rifle Shoppe would work, OR if they used Pedersoli Parts, that too would work. BUT..., They use their parts, and you can't use replacement tumblers.

I've not tried to "adapt" a replacement tumbler to an Indian lock plate. I guess I should see if the main hole is small enough to be enlarged (and at the same time kept round ) to accept an OTC tumbler... which then means the **** has to fit the new tumbler and I think the square hole in the **** is "off" if you try to use it on an Italian or American made tumbler. Then of course you have the sear placement problem. AFTER all of that would the lock fit the original mortise ???

LD

I purchased an Indian lock by accident once thinking it was a navy arms lock. I took it apart and the internals were very soft. The mainspring took shaved off a good amount from the Lockplate. I ended up giving it to a reinactor who had a middlesex long land, it looked very similar But the parts would not interchange at all.

Sometimes the only way to fix one of these is to make an epoxy mold out of it and beg someone to drop it in with their next shipment To the foundry.