Brown Bess

[mhb]

Recently, I was lucky enough to acquire an original India Pattern Brown Bess in excellent condition: so good, in fact, that it's fully shootable - and I've been shooting it. It's great fun and both accurate and reliable.
BUT: it's over 200 years old, and I'd like to save stress on it while continuing to work with the type.
The best candidate seems to be the Pedersoli Short Land Pattern repro, which, though I know it's not really historically accurate, is still a very close approximation in all the pertinent details, and seems to be well-liked among current users.
I'm still kicking myself for having missed the one of these which was just offered in the for-sale list, but have found that Cabela's has them in-stock at a price which is enough lower than current retail to be attractive.
Any comments from those familiar with the Pedersoli BB repro would be appreciated. Anyone who has a nice used one to spare would be a pal...

Thanks;

mhb - MIke

 

[Grenadier1758]

The Pedersoli brown bess is a good solid well built gun in the pattern of the Short Land Pattern, Second Model. It will be a joy to shoot.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yes indeed, if you want a very well made Bess, the ONLY option other than custom built is the Pedersoli, and if the price tag doesn't make you balk, then go for it, absolutely.

LD

 

[spudnut]

try to find an older used one as the locks seem to be better

 

[mhb]

Thanks to all for the replies!
Spudnut: what sort(s) of problems are encountered with the new locks?
And, if anyone could point me to a good used one for sale, I'd be grateful...

mhb - MIke

 

[Grenadier1758]

The frizzens are case hardened. Most spark very well when new. Some lots are better than others. When the case hardened layer is thin, it can soon wear out and then no spark. Pedersoli has been aware of these problems and tried to have well case hardened parts. Some lots and some individual locks are better than others.

Other than to snap a lock to look at spark production or run a file across the face of the frizzen to see if the frizzen is soft, there is little additional inspection to do. With the older used guns, the likelihood of a soft frizzen is greater. Inspection of the parts is the watchword.

For a production Brown Bess, the Pedersoli Bess would still be the best choice.

 

[mhb]

Grenadier:
Thank you again. I suspected that might be the issue, since flintlocks both original and modern are prone to the problem of durability of the striking face of the frizzen. Do you know whether the material of which the Pedersoli frizzens are made is a high-carbon steel, which might be simply through-hardened by raising above the critical temperature and quenching, followed by tempering; or of a steel which must be case hardened to raise the hardness and carbon content of the surface, either by the casenit method or by pack-hardening?
And, are there any problems you know of with the other lock parts?
Any leads as to where to find a good used specimen?

mhb - MIke

 

[Artificer]

Mike,

The problem is that Pedersoli and other Italian Manufacturers often won't provide the information on what kind of steel/s are used in their parts. If you don't know what steel/s they use, it is just a guessing game on the best way to harden the surface. So the irony is that even though we are living in the 21st century, it turns out the best ways to fix their frizzens is either through the 18th century methods of soldering a good steel "half sole" to the face of the frizzen or through pack hardening the part/s.

Personally, I am fortunate in that I used Kasenite and double quench the frizzen in the compound, as per the directions. This has given me a "serviceable" method to keep my Pedersoli Bess Steel/Frizzen going in the past. As a reenactor, we snap the **** (flint hammer) on the steel (frizzen) much more than even many people who compete with the guns in target shooting, so we go through any surface hardening faster than those who don't shoot as much.

As to a good used Pedersoli, there is so much demand for them by reenactors here in the East, that they get sold almost as soon as the gun is put up for sale, IF the price is at all reasonable. I can only suggest keeping an eye on this forum's classified section and also try some of the other gun brokerage sites.

Gus

 

[Britsmoothy]

Ironically, my 1983 made Pedersoli short Bess has an amazing lock, the thing I am sure would spark with a piece of pottery!

I did have to case harden a Pedersoli trade gun frizzen a few years ago now and that is also very reliable and a great sparker.

Opinion wise I would say Pedersoli do not use high carbon steel for frizzens, not by how I had to do the trade gun!

B.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Do you know whether the material of which the Pedersoli frizzens are made is a high-carbon steel,

Well so far..., they all appear to be made of good quality, carbon steel, for I have seen them heat treated without Kasenit or Cherry Red products, then quenched, and then heated to temper them, and have produced satisfactory results.

It's my theory, since the Italians won't share manufacturing techniques, nor will they reveal if there is any subcontractor involved in making parts for them..., that their process, not materials, sometimes causes problems.

For example I have a Pedersoli trade gun lock that clearly shows the hardening line on the back or spine of the the frizzen, and it's at an angle, and not complete for the full upright part of the frizzen, showing evidence that it was dipped when quenched from the top, but wasn't evenly dipped.

Because of this and the reports of occasional sparking problems from a recently produced Pedersoli frizzen, as well as ones that I have seen myself (one of which that I saw was too hard), I think they are possibly hardening the frizzens by quenching the face first, then continuing with a full quench, to try and reduce the number of steps. In effect I suspect they are trying to harden the face just enough, which results in uneven quenching/hardening, and the occasional too soft frizzen after a few dozen sparks, and when overdone produces the too hard frizzen that I observed in one case.

A proper heating to the correct temp, a hard quench, followed then by a correct controlled heating in an oven for tempering, should correct any faults if one finds fault.

LD

 

[mhb]

Thanks, again, to all those who have provided helpful responses!
Just one more question:
Does the Pedersoli Bess prefer 1" or 'musket' flints: my original finds the musket size a bit too long to permit resting at half-**** without the flint contacting the frizzen face and holding it slightly above the pan. I have been shortening them (the musket flints)as necessary, by chipping or grinding the butt, but find the width is correct, and do not currently have any 1" flints to try. Any input appreciated.
And, FWIW, the lock on the original sparks as well as any flinter I own, or have ever used - so long as the flint is not 'tired' it never fails.

mhb - MIke

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

My Pedersoli Brown Bess is one of my go-to guns. It always works. It is robust. It's a joy to shoot. Mine is a .73 so it's a 12 gauge. I bought it used from this site about 7 years ago for $600, and while it has blotches of scrubbed surface rust, the inside of the bore is mint and the gun works. Highly recommend.

 

[wulf]

I got mine in the early 80's.I had to have the frizzen reharded... I tweeked the **** angle and installed a custom main spring. Workes perfect to this day... couldn't be better....

 

[mhb]

Thanks once more for the input and responses. The very positive comments tipped me over the edge (I was teetering, anyway), and I ordered a new one from Cabelas, rather than waiting and taking a chance on finding a good used one, later.
Still wondering about the 1" vs 'musket' flint issue...

mhb - MIke

 

[Artificer]

Mike,

I was the Unit Armorer for the Major's Coy of the 42nd RHR and this is one thing I had the toughest time getting across to people - the length of flints they needed because none of them had competed in live fire with their muskets.

The length entirely depends on if you use a lead wrap and how thick it is, or a leather wrap and how thick that is. The thicker the wrap, the shorter length you generally need.

So I have actually installed 1" and even 7/8" flints with a fairly thick leather wrap. I would suggest you buy one of each size if you don't already have them from TOW and try them with the leather or lead wrap you use. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/141/1

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Sorry, forgot to mention something else. If you nip/cut a hole in the center of the wrap and wrap it around the flint, the rear of the flint will ride against the Top Jaw Screw because of the hole, which will sometimes/often help the flint. Generally if you do that then the 1 inch length flint might be the one that fits.

For folks in my unit who used both Pedersoli and Jap Besses, I wound up trying different size flints and pads to find the thickness/type of leather and length of flint that worked best for each musket and they were not always the same even amoung the same model of muskets.

Gus

 

[mhb]

Appreciate the info on your experience with flints. I use fairly thin leather for all my flinters - it holds the flint securely enough without adding as much additional weight(and lock time)as lead does to an already massive ****/flint assembly which moves slowly enough as-is.
I'll just have to keep altering the flints for my original Bess, which will not accept the average musket flint even with a notched leather without contacting the frizzen at the half-****, and will see what works when I receive the Pedersoli.

mhb - MIke

 

[Artificer]

Once I found the correct size flint and leather for each musket, I actually got to the point of cutting extra wraps for each musket and giving it to the member. Then I took a small 4x5 card and wrote his name, the size of flint and even stapled a piece of the leather to it. That way, when they asked about it in the future, I could easily give them the information.

Many, if not most of the problems our members ran into was not that the frizzen would not spark, but rather they did not have the correct size flint and wrap. Of course, I did have to case harden some frizzens along the way when they wore them down.

Gus

 

[nit wit]

Up here in Maine we are fortunate to have an amazing blacksmith, Jeff Miller/Flintlock Forge. He has repaired an original Rev war sword that was broken in two and made me a frizzen for a repro 1550 fishtail. That frizzen was an incredible spark thrower! He was cheaper than buying from a Italian gun parts place in Texas. Also, he is a really nice guy. He's our treasure here in Maine, but I guess we can spare him.
Best of luck
Nit Wit

 

[hunts4deer]

A proper heating to the correct temp, a hard quench, followed then by a correct controlled heating in an oven for tempering, should correct any faults if one finds fault.

LD, In an oven at what temperature? For how long?