Building a Hawkin

[crockett]

I have a few questions on a Hawken project. I know a few were made in walnut but most were plain maple and stained. Some folks use curly maple and try to turn a Hawken into a Golden Age Lancaster type rifle but I want just a plain old Hawken. I have a plain maple stock. What would be a historically correct stain?
I also see a lot of sights. It seems to me the typical Hawken had a semi-buckhorn, slanted type rear sight and an iron front sight that was sort of square. Lots of folks tell me the front sight ought to be brass or copper base and a silver blade. What's historically correct? Also, if the sight doesn't fit, do you file the sight or file the dovetail? What's the best way to anchor a sight, I tried the dimple technique but I don't like the /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.giflittle marks it leaves. Any thoughts? Thanks.

 

[Slowpoke]

I call this my Albrecht, Ferree, and Newcomer inspired Hawken.

It's my target rifle and it has a Bomar site.

 

Re fastening a sight, you can dimple the bottom of the sight and then you won't see them. I always file the sight so the barrel dovetail stays the same. If you file the barrel slot too large, you are somewhat scr--ed...

 

[Doc Arroyo]

Crockett-

I want you to take a really deep breathe, and relax.
Ask yourself a couple of questions.

1. After the finish is dry will anyone be able to tell if the stain is period correct?

2. What kind of period correct front sight do I, or my customer, shoot best with?

Aqua fortis was very common as a stain, but alcohol and oil based walnut stains were also available.

If you want PC walnut stain - grind up walnut shells and soak in alcohol. Don't tighten the lid, because there is often a bit of outgassing. Stir occasionally. When it has molded or gone rancid, throw it away, go to you local hardware store and buy some off the shelf! I did!

As for the sight - look to the books, and research the style and shape of the Hawken sight. Don't sweat the material. Use the material that answers question #2 the best. That is what Sam and Jake did.

Now I have a question for you. How are you going to finish the metal? Most folks seem to be in love with browning a Hawken. But I have read in at least two books that Hawken were blued, and the brown we see is the patina of 160 years. Just like an old Winchester has that warm old brown, but we know that all of them left the factory in a deep blue finish!

Good luck with your project!

 

[Donny]

Yur right, Hawkins were plain jane, not gussied up ..On a stain, Do you want a brand new looking Hawken, or a sorta used look? Don

 

[crockett]

Don. I was looking for sort of a used look. I too have read that some or all Hawken were blued but I was going to Brown with Laurel Mountain. I have used it before with a damp box and get good results. Usually I put on a coat of tru-oil at the end and it really smooths out the finish but this time I was going to omit it.
Some of the Hawken photos I have seen look like there may have been a bit of red to the finish. Aqua Fortis is more brown, in my opinion, that's why I was wondering about the PC stain.

 

[nvbirdman]

Anvil touched on the subject of whether to file the sight or the barrel, but it's simple. If you file the sight too small, you can buy another sight. If you file the barrel too big, you are scr--d.
The people on this forum have been recommending a water or alcohol-based stain. Not oil-based.
Please ask lots of questions, everyone here loves questions!!!

 

[Doc Arroyo]

Crockett-

Aqua fortis on a maple stock with light heat has a definate reddish cast to it. As it ages it will move more to the brown. If you haven't nuetralized the acid well, it may move to a greenish color.

Water and alcohol stains are fine, although you spend alot of time whiskering the finish. I just happen to have had my best luck with a Miniwax stain. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

To each thier own, and your milage may vary.

 

[Herb]

crockett- The Green River Rifle Works of Roosevelt, Utah made copies of Hawkens and Lemans. They had their own stain, I don't know what it was. I took a class there and we stained my Leman with chromic acid, so I guess that was traditional. Turned kinda green in a few years (that was 1978), and my plan is to sand it down and refinish. I'll use dark brown leather dye. Have used aqua fortis, no problems. My friend Neill Fields used to use it (he worked at GRRW and has now built 355 ML firearms), but not now. He built a full stock flint Hawken for Randy here in Vernal 8 years ago, he can't remember his stain but it was probably one of the acids, and the stock turned white. Randy had me restain it. I took the leather dye and swabbed it on, dried it overnight, and hot beeswaxed the finish. That easy. To see this rifle, click on my name, Herb, and when my profile comes up, click on "show all user's posts" at the bottom. Click on my entry for 5/11/04. Track sells copper base sights, I've built 4 Hawkens and use them. Buckhorn sights OK. In the Gateway NP in St. Louis there is an original Hawken with a closed buckhorn sight. This is where the "horns" close together like a washer. Doc White (old GRRW) shoots that style. I've made them and like them. For a "used look" on the metal, you can use Brownell's Oxypho Blue. Very easy to use and wears off to look old. You can see this in the Photo section under "Carole's .40 Flintlock and test of Goex and Swiss Powders".

 

[Donny]

I do not like alcohol stains(leather dye), if there are small areas of the stock that has some off color, it is difficult if not impossible to match. Can be splochy.I have tried Turner Kirklands suggestion(in the back of Dixie cataloges)and used tar, thinned with kerosene or mineral spirits. It gives a pleasing antique apparence to maple, I liked it. He also used a plug of tobacco, soaked in household ammonia, as period correct.. I like aqua fortis, if you want a reddish tinge. I think to look old, there has to be some black in the grain. Don Eads suggested first using water based walnut stain on maple to bring out curl and figure, then apply whatever stain you prefer.. Don

 

[crockett]

Doc, I have also read about Hawkens being blued instead of browned. Dixie Gun Work's Catalog says the buttplate and capbox-if present- were often case hardened or blued. In Hanson's,"The Plains Rifle" he says the barrels were browned but the other hardware was blued. I am told that color case hardening may warp metal so I am a little afraid of that option and besides I don't have or know of an easy home shop method to accomplish that task. If the barrel was browned then I assume the under rid and pipes were browned. I have no idea about the nose cap. Maybe there was some variation, that is, some Hawken rifles all browned, some blued, some a combination. The more I read about Hawken rifles the more variation I discover. I have read that a few early percussion rifles used a plain side drum but some one else told me that this is incorrect, that flint Hawken rifles converted to percussion were fitted with a plain drum. In any event a plain drum may or may not be PC. Maybe I need a tranquilizer! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[tg]

I think you will find variations in what was and wasn't during the 1820-1850 period when it comes to guns and gun finishes, I believe the Hawkin records were destroyed in 1849 so many answers went up in smoke, I have seen newspaper adds from 1795-1840 where gunsmiths offered bluing or browning as a gun finish, I don't think you would go wrong with a brown or blued barrel and cased or browned furniture, you can also brown or blue/black everything (the same product shoud do either)then wool it back to where it looks well worn, there are many options, then as now customer choice may have been a factor in how/what was done.

 

[tg]

As for the simple drum on an early caplock, I have seen picks of many that appeared to be non-conversions, it would be the simplest way to make a caplock for someone who has been making flinters.

 

[robertl]

Some years ago when I was building rifles, I became aquainted with a man in St, Louis who ran a shop catering to the muzzleloading interests. He had been a collector of firearms for many years and had several Hawken ( it's spelled with an 'e') rifles which I was privlidged to handle from time to time. On at least 2 of these rifles I distinctly remember that the front sight was a copper base with a silver blade. The blades were actually a barly corn shape. Very low to the barrel, not standing tall and all squared off like you see on many reproductions today.

The rear sights varied but all ( as for as I can remember) were slanted to the rear with slight differences to the shape of the rear face and the height of the sight notch. A form of buckhorn or semi buckhorn being the general shape.

As for as a stain is concerned; I primarily built flint guns. I have a strong dislike for Hawken rifles as for as building them is concerned. In the flint era there were 2 stains that I found I could still duplicate today. One was Potasium Promanginate(sp) and the other was Chromium Trioxide. The potasium gave a redish/purple tint to the wood. After wiping it on and letting it dry the dark parts of the wood often looked 'chared'. It would give you an old look to the wood and it didn't change colors over the years like some stains do.

The other stain, Chromium Trioxide, gave the wood a yellow or honey colored tint. It looked good but would change colors over the years. If you have ever gone to a museum and noticed an olive or greenish tint to some old stocks, it very well may have been stained with Chromium Trioxide.

If you want to learn a little history about the Hawken guns and somethings that may help you as a builder I would suggest you try and find a copy of "Hawken Rifles, The Mountainman's Choice, by John D. Baird. ISBN 0-88227-010-9
It's probably out of print now days but I'm sure you can find it in used book stores or over the internet.

A couple other things that you may like to know that are hard to find in print; The under-rib was attached to the bottom flat of the barrel with screws and ther was a small cupped recess on the very tip that was soldered to the barrel att he muzzle to prevent the rib from being snagged.

All rifles that I was able to examine had subtle accents to the stock; the forearm had a very slight belly to it, the bottom of hte butt portion from the trigger guard back to the toe of the butt plat was also slightly belled.

When you stood the rifle on it's butt with the barrel vertical only the heel of the butt plate would touck the floor. Many moder versions have such a slanted butt plate that the toe actually touches the floor before the heel. This is not historically accurate.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings All,

The posts on Hawkens rifle were read with great interest. Can anybody recommend a source for a really goog pre-carved/shaped Hawkens half stock. Actually, I am looking for one on the Mario Modena pattern or something very similar. I have tried most, if not all the more common vendors and have spent enough money in return shipping fees to buy a stock. Any and all recommendations would be appreciated.

Thqanks, John L. Hinnant

 

[Herb]

John- My friend Neill Fields used to build Hawkens for a living, at the Green River Rifle Works. He has now build over 355 ML firearms. He just told me he is finishing up a .54 Hawken (probably Jim Bridger style) for a friend, and got to the finishing stage in 30 hours! He also just repaired an original Hawken that was dropped on its heel and broken through the lock panels. I could hardly detect the repair, the glue joint or the stain and refinish. Now, he likes Leman stocks to cut a Hawken from. Track no longer shows a half stock Leman, just a full stock. I was at Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply Co. in Rockford, IL a couple of weeks ago. They have a new catalog now and have inletted Hawken and Leman halfstocks. I'll ask Neill your question and get back to you here.

 

[Donny]

John, exactly what was not right about the stocks you returned? Who has the wrong kind? Don

 

[Herb]

John- you can but a set of plans, such as from the Hawken Shop, and shape an uninletted stock to fit. Poured pewter nose cap, dark brown leather dye.

Crockett, avert your eyes!

Ron Smith wanted the barrel and lock engraved after browning, like Lee Robertson used to do here in Utah.

This is a .54 with a Douglas barrel. Copper base sight.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Greetings, Herb, and Donny,

Thanks for the information. It is very useful. How do I contact Neill Fields? Those are nice photos and looks like a real nice Hawken.

Donny, I would prefer not to express my opinions on the forum. That would not be professional, particularly since the various vendors would not have the opportunity to defend their product. The points I find objectable might not mean anything to others.

I am looking for a pre-carved half stock with J&S Hawken features cia 1840 or a bit earlier that does not reguire extensive shaping. I just do not want to do that much stock work any more.

One of the problems with the stocks returned was the butt plate would have to be shortened too much from heel to toe for a 14-1/4 to 14-1/2 trigger to butt length. That was a common problem.

For a late period S. Hawken, the Track of the Wolf Kit Carson stock was very nice. A friend used one to build a great looking Hawken. Unfortunately, for me , it is not available with a barrel channel larger than 1". This stock is shaped(pre-carved) to such close specs. little or no finish shaping was required. Most of the external work required careful sandind to clean up and retain sharpe edges, not over sand, creating high and low spots.

This is what I am looking for in a J&S Hawken pre-carved half stock. A pre-carved stock on the Mariano Modena pattern would be perfect.

Thanks again, John L. Hinnant

 

[Herb]

John- Neill lives in a cabin in the mountains with no computer and only a cell phone, only on a few hours at night. I called him two nights and will try until I can give him your last post. I'll pass his answer, which he will freely give, on to you. I don't know his mailing address. I looked at my work log and found that my finish was complicated on this rifle. First, aqua fortis, then dark brown oil leather dye, next several coats of linseed oil, then 2 coats Permalyn sealer, then 7 coats of low gloss tung oil, all coats dried in a cabinet. Metal had 13 coats of Tru Brown, in a humid damp box. End of underrib was soldered to fill, rib screwed on. All coated with hot beeswax. Then I had Doc Gary White stamp the barrel "S. Hawken St Louis" with his old Green River Rifle Works stamps. Tru browned the stamp. Then engraved, the lock pattern is from an original Hawken rifle, per John Baird's photo. If you are talking about length of the butt plate, I frequently cut a plate to the height of the stock. Also bend butt plates that need it.