Bullets are a tight fit

[hopper055]

How tight are the bullets suppose to be in the barrel? After reading for days on how to properly shoot my muzzleloader. I went to test loads starting with 50 grains of black powder in my .50 cal 1-48 twist barrel. And when I went to use my short start I couldent get it started I ended up messing up the nose of the bullet and gave up. So I bought .50 cal bullets for my .50 cal muzzleloader what am I doing wrong? I'm sorry I know its gotta be something simple. I'm use to just buying some rounds of ammunition and going to the range so all this is new to me.
The rifle is a fox river .50 cal. Any help is very appreciated. I also have .490 lead balls on the way I was hoping to patch with but now the diameter of the balls has me worried.

 

[don hepler]

What bullets were you trying to load? Bullets usually fit looser than a patched ball. Why are you concerned about a .490 ball? You can size the patch to get a good fit. I know an .018 patch sounds to big, but a lubed patch compresses a lot in to the rifling and a 1:48 can shoot a good group with the right charge, patch, lube and etc.

As for the .490 balls, the only other choice is a .495. The .490 will require a slightly thicker patch.

 

[Vaino]

A friend of mine who was just starting to use a MLer bought some Maxiballs for his new .50 TC Hawken and seeing the conicals didn't start too well, he used a mallet to smack the short starter and while smacking, broke the wrist in two. He called me up and the first thing I asked....what cal. are the Maxiballs? He told me that it said ".54 cal." on the pkg. Well, to make a long story short, he called TC and they said to send it in. 2 weeks later he had a brand new stock for "no charge". He even rec'd the new stock in time for deer hunting. I'd say that was extremely generous of TC and a cheap learning experience for my friend......Fred

 

[Billnpatti]

I assume that when you say that you were attempting to load "bullets", that you are referring to conical projectiles as opposed to patched round balls. If that is a correct assumption, then I would ask if they were the saboted bullets that are intended for use in an inline rifle? If they are, you are attempting to use the wrong type of projectile. You will be far better served by using a .490 ball with a .015 to .018 patch. Go to a fabric shop and ask for 100% cotton drill fabric that is used for making pants pockets. It will measure about .015 in the store. Take it home and wash it to remove the " sizing". Then you can use the lube of your choice to lube your patches. They do not have to be cut round, square patches work just as well as round ones. Cut them about 1 3\4 inches wide, no more than that is needed. These patches properly lubed, not too much lube, just enough to moisten the fabric, should load rather easily but not be too loose.

If this is a brand new rifle, it could possibly have tool marks left in the bore and that can make loading a bit difficult. Look carefully at your bore to be sure that it is smooth and free of chatter marks left by the rifling process. If your bore needs some polishing, just post another question about polishing your bore.

 

[necchi]

What bullets were you trying to load?

Yup, we need that info too :wink:

 

[mooman76]

Yes, more info needed. First make sure they are 50 cal and make sure they are for muzzle loaders, not just regular bullets meant for center guns. Conicals (except for minies) or maxies are meant to fit tight. I usually have to give a good sharp wack to get them started. It's possible that if you gave it not so hard wacks trying to get it started you just spread it out or mushroomed it, making it harder to get started.

 

[hopper055]

I'm trying to load Maxi-Ball super penetration .50 caliber 320 grain bullets I bought at walmart. The original idea was to just use balls but I got a little excited about shooting it and bought what I thought would work at walmart. I plan to use patch strips so I can cut it off at the muzzle and use crisco as a patch lube and pillow ticking for the patch Is this a bad idea? And thanks for all the replies so far. I'm Looking forward to learning more.

 

[mooman76]

Sounds like a good plan. Since you have already stated it is a tight bore, you might want to start with .490 balls rather than .495. Also you may need to get different patch thicknesses to find what you need. The patch will have more give to it so you shouldn't have the same problem you had with conicals. If your gun is new, I assume it is, the bore will be a little tight for awhile and should loosen up a little after you break it in. Good luck.

 

[mooman76]

Also I thought I would mention, maxis are usually tapered for and easier fit and to aid in starting it straight so the bottom of your maxi should fit in the barrel almost effortlessly.

 

[BrownBear]

Sounds as though it's just a case of the maxis needing to have a tight fit in order to shoot accurately. The rifling has to "engrave" in them when you start and seat the bullet, forming a seal against the combustion gases. I dunno your gun, but if it has deep rifling it's a round ball gun in spite of the twist rate, and is going to be a dickens to use conicals. Even with shallow rifling it takes a really hard whack to start conicals like the Lee REAL bullets for best accuracy. In fact R-E-A-L is an acronym for Rifling Engraved At Loading.

The nose deformation you're getting from the short starter is just a matter of the shape of the tip of your starter. You'll get much the same thing loading metalic cartridges when there's a poor fit of the seating stem. Dedicated muzzleloader conical shooters will use short starters with tips shaped for their own specific bullet.

I'm betting you'll find lots easier loading (and more happiness) with round balls. Lotta guys still use really tight ball/patch combos for max accuracy, but they're still easier to load than an accurate conical combo.

 

[nkbj]

How tight are the bullets suppose to be in the barrel? After reading for days on how to properly shoot my muzzleloader. I went to test loads starting with 50 grains of black powder in my .50 cal 1-48 twist barrel. And when I went to use my short start I couldent get it started I ended up messing up the nose of the bullet and gave up. So I bought .50 cal bullets for my .50 cal muzzleloader what am I doing wrong? I'm sorry I know its gotta be something simple. I'm use to just buying some rounds of ammunition and going to the range so all this is new to me.
The rifle is a fox river .50 cal. Any help is very appreciated. I also have .490 lead balls on the way I was hoping to patch with but now the diameter of the balls has me worried.

Yo hopper.
For lubed lead maxiball bullets, ideally the base of the bullet will be almost bore diameter. Being almost (or rather just under bore diameter) lets the bullet get started into the muzzle. Once the bullet is started in the muzzle then hopefully the front of the bullet will at the muzzle engage the rifling and be engraved with the lands in the barrel.
If the bullet is too small in diameter it doesn't work out well for shooting accurately. And if the bullet is too big to start with then it just gets boogered up trying to push it in.

If the bore on your rifle is smaller than the base of the maxi's then the maxi's can be hand fit to your barrel by rolling them on a clean hard surface just like you were working dough. Just put a little more pressure towards the base as you roll. Something flat like a cd case can be used to press down with. All you'll be doing is slowly swaging down the diameter. When it's a bore fit on the base you're in business with a custom made to order maxi, at the price of a piece of scrap plastic rather than some custom made mold and sizer.

 

[hopper055]

The maxi was hard to start. I couldn't even get the entire bottom skirt into the rifling. I've double checked and the barrel is marked .50cal and so are the maxis. I guess I'll just have to stick to patched balls and consider the money I spent on the maxis spent on education.

 

[BrownBear]

I've double checked and the barrel is marked .50cal and so are the maxis.

There can be variability in "50 caliber" dimensions between manufacturers. Sounds like your bore may be a little undersize compared to other companies, or as I said before, perhaps it has deep rifling. One of the virtues of shooting patched balls is the ability to "adjust" the dimensions to fit the bore. Not so easy to adjust conicals to fit a bore unless you go to something like a bullet sizer to be used before loading.

 

[tenngun]

just reading all these above post got me thinking. I don't shoot maxis, minnies, reals, or buffalos my self. PRB go through and through every thing I shoot.
The thing I was thinking was that a lot of RB shooters have coned barrels. Would coning the barrel make it easier to load a conical at the muzzle? Would it effect the accuracy?

 

[crockett]

Just so we are all on the same page. I hope you realize you don't use a patch with a conical, you just load as is. On the mallet. I've read that mallets were issued to troops to drive down conical type bullets. They are very difficult to load and you have to swab the bore between shots. If there is a lot of fouling left in the bore and you try to load a conical it will be almost impossible, even with the mallet.
The Civil War "Minnie" bullet was undersized and had a concave base with a sort of lead skirt that internal pressure pushed out against the bore to create a seal. The maxi-ball type conicals are oversized and have to be squeezed into the bore.
Disadvantages of conicals.....
1. Break the gun's wrist
2. Lead fouling in the bore. With a patched ball there is no lead fouling in the bore.
3. Need to carry a mallet
4. require the bore to be swabbed and cleaned between shots.
5. Cost significantly more than round balls.
6. Lower muzzle velocity
7. Increased internal pressures requiring reduced powder charges.
8. Impossible to use a screw/gun worm and pull a conical out of a bore.
9. Probably a lot more that I can't recall right now.
Advantages: over 70 yards they start to maintain velocity better than a patched round ball. Do some offhand shooting or shooting from a seated position (like in a tree stand) and see how well you do OVER 100 yards. You may decide 70-100 yards with the muzzle loader's open sights and slower lock time are the maximum range you ought to shoot, which means conicals have no advantage over a patched round ball. Gun guru Elmer Keith maintained that a round ball of soft lead was very destructive on game animals.

 

[mooman76]

You shouldn't have to use a mallet to start a conical. I believe most use a mallet because if you shoot allot of conicals you will start to get a soar hand after awhile. I never used on but thought about it. I do primarily use RBs though.

 

[hopper055]

Thank you to you and everyone else that replied to my question. I now understand that conical bullets are meant to be really tight and may have to be "massaged" to smaller tollerances for my barrel. I will probably try to reduce the diameter of the conicals to shoot what I have left. I do not wish to use these with any regularity. I was just anxious to get out and shoot my new rifle before my round balls came in that I bought something I knew nothing about. I honestly should have known better. Thanks for all the help

 

[Zonie]

You've probably already figured out that conicals are loaded without a patch of any kind.

Even doing this may not be possible if your guns bore is slightly undersize and the conical is on the large size.
Conicals should be .002 to .003 (two to three thousandths) of an inch smaller than the barrels bore. That's about the thickness of one human hair.

With this clearance, the bullet will load with finger pressure and a light push of the ramrod will seat them on the powder charge (in a clean barrel).
In a fouled barrel, even this .002-.003 undersize condition will usually start easily but they will be a real PITA to ram down the bore.

On a side note, I once bought a .58 caliber Zouave rifled musket. The previous owner said he only fired it once. He also gave me a box of .58 caliber Buffalo bullets with one missing.

When I tried loading the gun with one of those bullets, it got about 6 inches down my clean bore and stopped.
Of course, I couldn't fire the gun with the bullet sitting that far up the bore from the breech without blowing the barrel up so I used all of my strength to ram the bullet. It only moved about an inch. :cursing:

I ended up getting my claw hammer out of the truck and pounding the steel ramrod to drive that damn bullet down to the powder.

It did fire OK but the rest of that box of bullets ended up being melted and recast into roundballs.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Maxi-Ball super penetration .50 caliber 320 grain bullets

Those marketing hype names always bother me. "super penetration" is a hook for the fish.
Are you sure those are intended for use in a traditional style muzzle loader? If they are for the (do I dare say it here? :shocked2: )..choke....inlines...you have a critter of a different horse, or something.
Send a pic of your "bullet" and, more better a pic of the packaging.

 

[Sure Shot 2]

My first questions would be:

Was its barrel cleaned prior to the day in question?

Had this rifle been fired before your attempted reloading of the Maxi?

You do know a Maxi Ball or a pre-lubed bullet doesn't require patching?

I suggest you purchase a CVA B/P Bore Light or the lithium light out of a (night-time) fishing bobber found at Walmart will suffice. Just to make sure your barrels bore is in good shape prior to its next firing.