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Can you get 3 aimed shots a minute?

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Who did you skirmish with? I shot with the 69th NY for five years. I have been out of it for a long time now
Kevin

I have shot with the 2nd. VA Vol. Inf. since I joined in 1985 and my wife is a shooter too having joined in the early 90s when the N-SSA rules were changed to allow women to participate. Though I live only 11 miles from Ft. Shenandoah I built a cabin on our campsite so that we can enjoy entire skirmishes and the socialization too.
 
Has anyone read the March Mozzle Blasts? Accidental ignition, loading a hot barrel. The hole article is good read.

I remember one time when our team was shooting very poorly in the events and I fired my Springfield so fast and often (HOT August day in VA) that I had to put a rag through the top sling swivel to hold the gun with while loading as the barrel was far too to touch, no problem. The N-SSA has an excellent safety record with everything from smoothbore pistols to howitzers and one probably has a greater chance of a satellite falling on them than being injured at a skirmish.

I have also fired my Brown Bess so fast and frequently that I couldn't touch the barrel, again without a problem. When our rifle company regularly competed in the Governor's Firelock Match at Ft. Frederick I was capable of firing 3 aimed shots per minute using a cartridge box and prepared paper cartridges. Loading and firing was done exactly as in von Stuben's Manual of Arms.

Many of the members here feel loading and firing fast is unsafe and while I disagree I do respect their opinion and value their input. I enjoy shooting in all forms from fast (Reising M50) to the vintage single shot .22 my brothers and I learned to shoot on and actually that may be my favorite shooter even after almost 70 years with it.
 
I have shot with the 2nd. VA Vol. Inf. since I joined in 1985 and my wife is a shooter too having joined in the early 90s when the N-SSA rules were changed to allow women to participate. Though I live only 11 miles from Ft. Shenandoah I built a cabin on our campsite so that we can enjoy entire skirmishes and the socialization too.
The NSSA is truly a great organization. I loved the few years I had with the 69th. Troubles at home caused me to quit, but I remember my time there very fondly
Kevin
 
I was curious what all you guys can do I know this is the old world gold standard I was trying it at the range with a 61 springfield and I could almost but not quite get there and it felt like I was flying impressive that these guys did it under fire reliably
One thing you have to remember is that British Line soldiers who had to accomplish the "three shots per minute" rate were doing so using paper cartridges loaded with undersized balls (.69 cal. for .75 musket) and measured powder. they carried them in a cartridge box hung from their left shoulder across the chest to rest at the right hip. The US and French forces had the same arrangement but with .62 cal balls for the French .69 muskets, which both the US and French troops used.

Reason for the undersized ball was so they could continually load and fire without the need to swab the barrel to clean it out. If they used a normal sized ball such as a .74 ball for their .75 musket, they would be lucky to get two shots off before needing to swab about the barrel so the next charge could be seated. Below is a picture of an actual musket cartridge from the Rev War:

Musket Cartridge Parts.jpg


They were kept in cartridge boxes such as this, typically holding from 18 to 24 pre-loaded cartridges:

Rev War Cartridge Box with strap.jpg

Rev War Cartridge Box.jpg

Here's how it was used:
• With the musket under their arm, the **** at half-**** and the pan open, the first thing they'd do is grab the cartridge from the box and flip the top flap up with their thumb as they brought it to their mouth.

• They'd then bite off the top close to the powder, charge, and close the pan. Then they would move the musket to their left side with butt slightly above or touching the ground and pour the rest of the powder down the barrel.

• Then flip the cartridge around and insert the ball part of the cartridge first, crumpling the paper of the cartridge down on top of it so the ball didn't just roll out if the barrel was pointed down. They would push it down slightly in the barrel with their thumb.

• Next they remove the ramrod, ram the ball and paper down on top of the powder, and return the rammer to the pipes.

• At this point, if firing in volleys, they would return their musket to the "Poise firelocks position". American forces would either Shoulder Firelocks or Poise Firelocks whichever the commander had previously specified. This way the commander could see when all troops were ready for the next volley.

• Finally the command would be to "Make Ready" (**** pulled to full-**** position), "Present" - musket shouldered and pointed or aimed at opposing line ("Take Aim" was the command for the American forces) - , and then "Fire".

The British musket troops were not allowed to take part in the line if they couldn't do this 3 times in one minute and in 1778 that became a requisite for the American Forces also.

Because these smoothbore muskets were loaded with undersized lead balls they were not very accurate but they were easy to load. But they didn't need to be accurate. When fired in volleys at you, it was like a giant shotgun with .69 caliber pellets filling the air. At about 50-yards distance the first volleys would hit a few folks. At 40-yards, a fair amount of folks were hit although your shot might hit the man next to the man you were aiming at. At 30-yards, virtually all shots would hit and cause massive injuries to the opposition. So it was vitally important to be able to load and fire more quickly than the opposition.

Ideally you would fire within 30 yards causing massive injuries and often momentarily shocking the opposing line. The the British typically lowered their muskets with bayonets forward and charged the enemy line. Point was to travel that last 25-yards or so before the enemy could reload, and the British were the best at it. So firing quickly and filling the air with shot was the primary point and accuracy was not really a concern for either side.

Now both the Brits and the Americans had rifle troops. The Brits had the Hessian Jaegers with their short, stout and accurate rifles, and the Americans had their rifle companies equipped with the troops personal longrifles. These rifles were capable of great accuracy out to 250-yards or more with their open, iron sights. But they used tightly patched lead balls that were all but impossible to fire that quickly. So they were most effectively used at picking off officers, artillery crews, and troops between about 100 and 250-yards. When musket troops got within about 100-yards of the rifle troops the rifles would typically head back behind the first line of musket troops or head out to the flanks finding cover in the woods to continue sniping at British troops. They could cause great damage to the British, especially to the officers, but battles were really decided by the musket troops.

I have personally seen some folks fire a rifle at and hit a target at close to 3 shots per minute, but not quite. That was typically at a Biathlon with a king of the hill competition where the shooter was allowed to use a loading block and stand his ramrod up in the snow in front of him. The target was at 25-yards for the first round and 50-yards at the second round and if you missed the target, the shot didn't count. To my knowledge, here are no extant loading blocks from the 1770's, nor any primary documentation of their use. It would be safe to say a rifleman would be hard pressed to load and fire two shots, let alone three, accurately with a tightly patched ball (such as a .490 ball in a 50-cal.) within 1 minute - especially if you had to accurately hit your target at 100-yards or more and then disappear in the woods before the advancing Brits got close enough to hit you.
 

Attachments

  • DrillManualOf1764_2167044R.pdf
    1.5 MB
One thing you have to remember is that British Line soldiers who had to accomplish the "three shots per minute" rate were doing so using paper cartridges loaded with undersized balls (.69 cal. for .75 musket) and measured powder. they carried them in a cartridge box hung from their left shoulder across the chest to rest at the right hip. The US and French forces had the same arrangement but with .62 cal balls for the French .69 muskets, which both the US and French troops used.

Reason for the undersized ball was so they could continually load and fire without the need to swab the barrel to clean it out. If they used a normal sized ball such as a .74 ball for their .75 musket, they would be lucky to get two shots off before needing to swab about the barrel so the next charge could be seated. Below is a picture of an actual musket cartridge from the Rev War:

View attachment 299495

They were kept in cartridge boxes such as this, typically holding from 18 to 24 pre-loaded cartridges:

View attachment 299514
View attachment 299496
Here's how it was used:
• With the musket under their arm, the **** at half-**** and the pan open, the first thing they'd do is grab the cartridge from the box and flip the top flap up with their thumb as they brought it to their mouth.

• They'd then bite off the top close to the powder, charge, and close the pan. Then they would move the musket to their left side with butt slightly above or touching the ground and pour the rest of the powder down the barrel.

• Then flip the cartridge around and insert the ball part of the cartridge first, crumpling the paper of the cartridge down on top of it so the ball didn't just roll out if the barrel was pointed down. They would push it down slightly in the barrel with their thumb.

• Next they remove the ramrod, ram the ball and paper down on top of the powder, and return the rammer to the pipes.

• At this point, if firing in volleys, they would return their musket to the "Poise firelocks position". American forces would either Shoulder Firelocks or Poise Firelocks whichever the commander had previously specified. This way the commander could see when all troops were ready for the next volley.

• Finally the command would be to "Make Ready" (**** pulled to full-**** position), "Present" - musket shouldered and pointed or aimed at opposing line ("Take Aim" was the command for the American forces) - , and then "Fire".

The British musket troops were not allowed to take part in the line if they couldn't do this 3 times in one minute and in 1778 that became a requisite for the American Forces also.

Because these smoothbore muskets were loaded with undersized lead balls they were not very accurate but they were easy to load. But they didn't need to be accurate. When fired in volleys at you, it was like a giant shotgun with .69 caliber pellets filling the air. At about 50-yards distance the first volleys would hit a few folks. At 40-yards, a fair amount of folks were hit although your shot might hit the man next to the man you were aiming at. At 30-yards, virtually all shots would hit and cause massive injuries to the opposition. So it was vitally important to be able to load and fire more quickly than the opposition.

Ideally you would fire within 30 yards causing massive injuries and often momentarily shocking the opposing line. The the British typically lowered their muskets with bayonets forward and charged the enemy line. Point was to travel that last 25-yards or so before the enemy could reload, and the British were the best at it. So firing quickly and filling the air with shot was the primary point and accuracy was not really a concern for either side.

Now both the Brits and the Americans had rifle troops. The Brits had the Hessian Jaegers with their short, stout and accurate rifles, and the Americans had their rifle companies equipped with the troops personal longrifles. These rifles were capable of great accuracy out to 250-yards or more with their open, iron sights. But they used tightly patched lead balls that were all but impossible to fire that quickly. So they were most effectively used at picking off officers, artillery crews, and troops between about 100 and 250-yards. When musket troops got within about 100-yards of the rifle troops the rifles would typically head back behind the first line of musket troops or head out to the flanks finding cover in the woods to continue sniping at British troops. They could cause great damage to the British, especially to the officers, but battles were really decided by the musket troops.

I have personally seen some folks fire a rifle at and hit a target at close to 3 shots per minute, but not quite. That was typically at a Biathlon with a king of the hill competition where the shooter was allowed to use a loading block and stand his ramrod up in the snow in front of him. The target was at 25-yards for the first round and 50-yards at the second round and if you missed the target, the shot didn't count. To my knowledge, here are no extant loading blocks from the 1770's, nor any primary documentation of their use. It would be safe to say a rifleman would be hard pressed to load and fire two shots, let alone three, accurately with a tightly patched ball (such as a .490 ball in a 50-cal.) within 1 minute - especially if you had to accurately hit your target at 100-yards or more and then disappear in the woods before the advancing Brits got close enough to hit you.
I appreciate the write up very interesting! I actually used a friends 3d printer not too long ago to make a "template" for the paper cartridges for both my 61 Springfield and my Brown Bess I have yet to finish (soon!). once they are done I think I will give a crack at making my own paper rounds and we will see if I can fare any better. Plus the biting and loading looks pretty fun!
 
In the movie " Patriot" Mel Gibson ask is men to fire two shots before retreating. One man replied, " a lot can happen in the time it takes to fire two shots. His reply was" that's why I'm not asking you to shoot three! I couldn't imagine standing that close and letting guys shoot volleys at you while your reloading.
 
Reload speed is what had me thinkin about totin a second rifle should I give pig hunting a try. Watched some videos and now I am wondering how hard it would be to mount a proper bayonet on a TC front stuffer ...
 
I have not shot in quite awhile and could not do it now, but about 20 years ago I could fire 4 aimed shots in 1 minute with a flintlock rifle if I started with a loaded rifle. Took me about 20 seconds to reload and fire, hurrying but paying attention so I would keep it safe. That was loading from a bench, with everything laid out and not from a bag, so I was not doing as well as the old time longhunters could. I did measure each powder charge, none were premeasured. Some years ago at the NC Territorial I had fiddled around and found I had 2 targets left to finish the musket agg, and only 1 relay left in the day. I fired 10 shots each on the 50 and 100 yard targets, a total of 20 shots, all scoring. Anyone having shot at Cross Creek knows how the range is set up, 25 yards at one end, 50 yards in the center, and 100 yards at the other end. I had to walk down the firing line for the last 10 shots before stepping up and capping my musket. I finished with 10 minutes left in the relay and I believe it was 5th place I got in the agg. I was using an Armi Sport Richmond musket. I did have all the powder charges measured out and all the minis lubed before the relay started. I was averaging 1 aimed shot per minute including the loading and walking.
 
With a smooth bore musket I can because aiming is like pointing a shotgun when a covey of quail get flushed. Can hit a man sized target like that but not always in the center.
 
Many years ago, I went to a shoot that was held between muzzleloaders and bow hunters. The target was the head of an Indian for the muzzleloaders and the head of a frontiersman for the bow hunters. We shot at 10 yards, 15 yards, 25 yards and 50 yards. We had 5 minutes to shoot as many rounds as we could at each yardage. I used a flintlock with quick loads and the best I could do was 3 shots in 5 minutes. Some of the percussion guys manage to get 4 shots some of the times. The Bow hunters did better at the short ranges but at 25 and 50 we scored better. The Bow hunters did win but not by much.
 
While this discussion is about muzzleloaders, in N-SSA competition, we shoot Civil War era arms and there's a Carbine class. In it are musketoons, Smiths, Sharps, etc. With a Sharps, 3 shots a minute and you're seriously dragging your feet. 3 shots a minute with a musketoon is not that hard but does take practice.
 
While this discussion is about muzzleloaders, in N-SSA competition, we shoot Civil War era arms and there's a Carbine class. In it are musketoons, Smiths, Sharps, etc. With a Sharps, 3 shots a minute and you're seriously dragging your feet. 3 shots a minute with a musketoon is not that hard but does take practice.
My response was going to be that with my smith carbine it’s a walk in the park. The only musket caps I have left are the Schuetzen brand brass plated steel. So they get hotter than heck and hold the heat much longer than brass. Consequently I don’t rapid fire all that often. Love the little gun though.
 
Reload speed is what had me thinkin about totin a second rifle should I give pig hunting a try. Watched some videos and now I am wondering how hard it would be to mount a proper bayonet on a TC front stuffer ...
I've shot over 200 wild pigs and never had one charge me. Their eyesight is poor just stay still. When you shoot they do scatter everywhere but they weren't charging but some ran close to me.
 
I appreciate the write up very interesting! I actually used a friends 3d printer not too long ago to make a "template" for the paper cartridges for both my 61 Springfield and my Brown Bess I have yet to finish (soon!). once they are done I think I will give a crack at making my own paper rounds and we will see if I can fare any better. Plus the biting and loading looks pretty fun!
I've attached a pdf template with instructions for making paper cartridges like the one in my post. They are for reenactment rounds so we don't put a lead ball in them, but can easily be made to include a lead ball. Be sure you use a short piece of copper pipe or just a piece of a dowel. The dowel or pipe needs to be smaller than the bore size of your rifle or musket so the end of the cartridge will fit inside your barrel when you dump in the main charge.. Otherwise you'll end up with a cartridge that is too large and more likely to spill some of the BP when you pour it down the barrel.

Although newspaper was the common paper used making them in the 1700's, the standard 20-lb. copy paper works just fine - just a little tougher to tear. Those tablets of tan art paper are about the perfect consistency to use for realism and ease of tearing. You hear that if you didn't have your front teeth, you couldn't be on the line, and I found out just why one day. The VA7 had private weekend of use of Explore Park in the Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia before the park's normal season started. They had a history walk that that started with a 1500's Indian village; then about 1/2 a mile down the road was the 1750's F&I fort where I often volunteered; then came the long hunters cabin; and finally a 19th century settlement complete with barn and farm animals as well as a Grist Mill and other buildings.

We had split into two groups and were running tactical engagements there on this one day. I'd fired a shot and then proceeded to reload my longrifle as usual. I bit the top of the cartridge and went to prime the pan, but the cartridge top was still on the cartridge. Yup, the cartridge top didn't come off...my left front tooth broke off instead and was lying at my feet! This was a capped tooth from when I was 12 (was in a schoolyard fight) and in my 60's, the tooth had just finally died underneath it. Because we used the 20-lb paper with period newsprint copied onto it, I had a hard time trying to bite it off with just one front tooth. So I had to tear it off with my fingers for the rest of the weekend, which was surprisingly much slower. Good news was that because it was a Regimental event, our unit's insurance covered a new bridge. Once I had that in place, I could bite the top off easily again. It's a fun time!
 

Attachments

  • Making Cartridges.pdf
    803.9 KB
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