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cant get good shot patterns....HELP !!

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silent sniper

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hello everyone I am trying to get a good pattern for squirrel in my double barrel cilinder bore 14 gauge shotgun I have been using 60 grains of 3F then an O/P wad. then I use hornets nest for wadding over that. then 90 grains of #6 shot. and 2 O/S wads over the shot. I have killed 4 squirrels with the same load except I was using 70 grains of 2F instead. But the patterns just dont satisify me. how can I get better patterns.

here is a pattern at 25 yards with 3F and only 1 O/S wad sense I ran out
I am getting good penetration as at 25 yards the shot goes thru both sides of a tin can
DSCF0273.jpg


here is a pic of the gun
DSCF0272.jpg
 
Looks like too much overpowder wad to me, try using thin overshot wads. Try stacking four of them over the powder and leave out the hornets nest. Then just one over shot. You have your shot to powder ratio about right.
 
The first thing I'd try would be to eliminate the hornet's nest material and see if the pattern would tighten up any...simple enough to do.

I don't know what your O/P wad is, but a single 1/8" Oxyoke prelubed wool wad has done well for me tightening up patterns with some losds in some barrels.

In others, a single Circle Fly 1/2" prelubed cushion wad will do well...nothing else in either case.

Second thing would be to use only one O/S card and see if that makes a difference.
 
Three things will blow a pattern in the middle - too much powder, too massive an overshot wad and too short a shot column.

Try a single cereal box thickness overshot card. (Circle Fly sells them - direct or through Track of the Wolf). I've used hornet's nest wadding and tow over the shot, but I get the best results with a thin stock card.

If you have problems at 60 grains it's likely not a blown pattern.
 
You may be flat siding some of your shot with that 3F. It will generate more initial shock against than the 2F will.
 
I think you are needing the answers to a couple of question, and not just one. Compare your load, 60 grains of FFFg powder, in a 14 gauge shotgun, with 90 grains, or 1 1/4 oz of shot to the following:

V.M. Starr Article, http://members.aye.net/~bspen/starr.html

his recommendations for 14 gauge load was:

3 1/4 dram-( 89 Grains!) of Fg or FFg powder( Not FFFg powder) In fact. V.M. Starr writes that he does not recommend using FFFg powder in any smoothbore larger than 28 gauge, and finds that even in a 28 gauge shotgun, FFg powder works better. To this Heavy load he adds only 1 1/8 oz. of powder( 80 grains by volume)

Or 3 drams( 76 grains) of FFg, and 1 oz. of shot(70 grains by volume).

Or, 2 1/2 Drams(69 grains) of FFg, and 1 oz of shot( 70 grains by volume)
_____________________________________

I checked the Hodgdon Reloading Data manual for 14 gauge loads, and they recommend as follows:

3 1/8(86 grains) of FFg, and 1 1/8 oz shot(80 grains) for 1055 fps. MV. This is a " HEAVY LOAD".

Or, 2 3/4 drams( 76 grains) of FFg, and 1 oz of shot( 70 grains by volume) for 1066 fps. MV- a MEDIUM load.
Or, 2 1/2 Drams( 59 grains) of FFg and 1 oz. of shot( 70 grains by volume) for 1027 fps. MV, a LIGHT load.
________________________________

If you read Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook, he has an excellent article on his own loads, for his 20 gauge flintlock,
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

and you can learn much about balancing loads and wads from his comments there.

http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html

Now, as to recommended wads, I think your pattern is blowing because you are using FFFg instead of FFg and the wrong amount. You say your are using hornets nest for a cushion wad, but not how much, how thick, etc. Without knowing those details, or actually seeing where this wadding lands in front of your gun, Its hard to say if its blowing the pattern by pushing into the back of the shot after the shot leaves the barrel.

I would recommend you try Jim Reckham's system of using only OS cards, but with a bit of twist:

All OS cards need a off-set hole punched in them with an awl or needle. Use 4 OS cards over the powder. Then load the shot, then load 2 more OS cards on top. Don't align the holes in the OS cards so that they match either card next to them. I do the 4 cards with the holes places at 12,3,6, & 9 O'clock. The 2 OS cards on top of the shot are placed with the holes at 12 & 6 o'clock. TWIST: I THEN RUN A GREASED CLEANING PATCH DOWN THE BARREL on top of the OS cards, and out again, to lube the bore. This allows the shot to slide over the bore as it comes out of the barrel, instead of rubbing lead streaks in the bore, and flattening the sides of those outer pieces of shot.

By using FFg powder, the velocity may be a bit slower, but more important, the build up of velocity is slower, so that you don't distort the shot at the bottom fo the column as much as you will using FFFg powder. By using ONLY OS cards, you insure that the light weight, cards with holes in each will separate quickly outside the muzzle, and float quickly to earth, rather than following your shot. The combination of removing the wadding behind the shot column AND preserving the shape of more pieces of shot by lubing the bore, will increase the number of shot you see on your pattern, and put the shot closer together at 25 and 30 yards.

Consider using a 3:4 ratio of powder to shot, by volume. If you are using that 60 grain charge of powder, then use 80 grains of shot by volume with it to get better patterns with a Light load. If you want a Medium load, try 70 grains of powder and 1 3/8( 100 grains) by volume of shot. If you want a truly heavy load, use 90 grains of powder, and 120 grains( 1 1/2 oz.) of shot.

Both the 60/80 load, and the 90/120 load follow that 3:4 ratio of powder to shot. The Medium load, of 70/100, is a 7:10 ratio, which is pretty close.

Now, You also were asking how you can tighten the patterns. There are any number of things to try that have been discussed here on the forums over this past year.

Making your own paper shot cups works. YOu need to make a tube of paper, like a coin wrapper, and then seal one end. measure out the shot charge or load you want to use, and then cut your tubes to that length. You will want to cut slits in the tube to create petals, that will open up outside the barrel and act as an air brake to stop the forward movement of the paper shot cup, and release the shot. Try 2 slits, only a 1/4 of the length of the column at first, Then 3, or 4, and increase the length of the cuts to see what that does to your patterns. The heavy paper( card stock works) protects the shot from being damaged in your bore as it is pushed up and out the barrel, while holding the shot together after it leaves the muzzle for some short distance. That tightens the patterns. How much depends on when the shot is released.

I stopped using #6 shot in my BP shotgun when I found that I had to make longer shots, than I like, and that #6 shot was just not retaining enough energy to kill the birds out at 35 yards in front of my cylinder bore gun. It would knock them down( pheasants) but often they would not be killed. I went to #5 shot for Pheasants after examing the tables in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual on retained pellet energy at 20, 40, and 60 yards.

For my 30-35 yard shots at pheasants, #5 shot gets it done, with authority. I had to find a distributor to buy the #5 shot, and I bought 2 bags( 50 lbs.) that first time. I only use the shot when hunting, so I still have some of the original 50 lbs of shot.

If you hunt over pointers, and the dogs stay close, so that the birds flush close, you can easily kill your limit of large pheasants with #6 shot because the shots will be inside 25 yards.

If you choke your barrel( Jug choke) you will put more pellets on the birds further out, and #6 shot will kill birds further, and with authority. The more pellets you hit the bird with, the more pellet energy is transferred to the bird, and shocks its nervous system.

I have nothing against using #6 shot. I am just in a situation where I rarely have dogs to use to hunt birds, and the birds tend to get up well in front of me, so that shots are often at 30 yards or more. Even over pointers, you can't be sure when the bird will flush, and long shots are also possible. I like hunting over dogs with my gun, however, because I generally have to let the bird get out some before slapping the trigger, to give my pattern some time to open up. It makes for much more leisurely shooting, instead of the quick jerk and poke technique it feels like I am doing when a fast shot has to be taken before the bird is out of range.

I hope this helps you. I agree with the others, that you should start with eliminating the hornet's nest as a cushion wad. Its really not necessary if you switch to FFg powder. And, its not going to save those pellets from being distorted if you continue to use FFFg powder.
 
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Ok, now for the "Cliff's notes" version. :haha: Get rid of the 3fff and go with 2ff. 2 3/4 drams of powder followed by a 1/8 hard card followed by a 1/4" to 3/8" felt wad followed by an over shot card followed by 1oz to 1 1/8 of shot with an over shot card.
All of these components are available here:
Circle Fly
Also, old original shot guns almost always have enough wear at the muzzle to blow patterns. Every one I've ever had wouldn't shoot a good pattern until The worn part was cut off, usually 3/8" to 5/8".
 
That is interesting, Mike. My brother's original 14 gauge seems to shoot fine pattern. I will have to take a long hard look at his muzzles, to check their condition. I am going to send your comments to him in a separate note. Thanks again.

Oh, I like your load choice( recommendation), too. I think we both know that particularly with Double Barrel guns, time has to be spent finding the best load for both barrels separately, whether the barrels have choke or not.
 
I am shooting an original 14ga. SxS. My loads are 2 3/4 dr. 2F and 1oz. of 7 1/2's on doves and clay targets. I use 1 over powder card, one 1/2" thick fiber cushion cut down to 1/4" thick and lubed with olive oil, 1 over shot card on top. I get good effective patterns. I realize you are hunting squirrels and in testing I switched to 6's and also got good patterns, with everything else remaining the same. Everyone has a preference, but for me, my best patterns came from using 2F instead of 3F in every shotgun I have tried and tested. Your results may vary.
 
ok I will swith back to 2F and get rid of the hornets nest. I will do some experimenting to see what groups the best.
 
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