Carolina Type G trade gun info needed?

[Turner1776]

Does anyone have a photo or info on the type g trade gun often called a carolina gun? JIM :redthumb:

 

[Okwaho]

This is a post I recently did on the Trekkers board on Type G /Carolina guns and I'll try to get some more info and referrences to pictures. Re: Carolina Gun aka Type G Trade Gun
Author: Okwaho
Date: 02-27-05 21:50

The Carolina gun and the type G gun are one and the same.Type G is the designation given to archealogical material discussed by T.M. Hamilton and found mainly in the Southeast comprising the remains of Carolina guns sent over in the 18th century.They were light, cheaply, but sturdily made English fowling pieces.The British Board of Ordnance bought and sent over some 1,780 guns between 1680 and 1716. The 1699 guns{180} were iron mounted.The 1700 guns{400}were brass mounted. The 1702 guns{400} were made of beech and were brass mounted. The 1710 guns were likely made of beech and "painted and spotted" according to pattern. The 1716 guns were brass mounted according to pattern but no wood specified and were also likely made of beech. All of these were intended as gift guns for[url] Indians.In[/url] 1753 another group of 400 guns which first used the term"Northwest" to denote a type of barrel for Indian guns and is the first recorded instance of 2 distinct types of guns,"Chiefs" and "common" guns.was sent over by the Board of Ordnance.The Board of ordnance bought no more guns{ except for 8 "large fowling pieces" 1737-1738 with only one known surviving example}until a large group of Ordnance sponsored Indian guns were made by 18 Birmingham contractors who delivered Chief's and Common guns,"rifles" and pistols intended for gifts to the Canadian and other British-allied Indins in the Gulf Coast area of the Southern United States during the War of 1812.Each of these closely followed the commercial types being made at the time A total of 26,801 guns were made between 1813 and 1816 most of them arriving too late for the war.
In addition to the gift guns referred hereinabove there were numerous makers producing these cheap but sturdy fowlers for private sale or trade with most going to Indians.The term "Carolina Guns" derives from estate records in York County, Va. for the period of 1732-40 where the inventory of a store run by one Thomas Hancock included "40 Carolina guns". In addition the Brirish Gun Barrel Control Act of 1855 still included "Carolina" guns in the small arms category.It is clear then that the guns sent over for sale or trade as well as Indian gifts were classified as Carolina Guns and that the archealogical remains of these guns used by Indians were classified as Type G. In my research I have largely concentrated on French guns and so haven't really gotten into the Sir William Johnson papers as to the guns sent to him in the mid 18th century but plan to do so. .See also "A Trade Gun Of The 1700's"PP.68-72 by Lee Burke included in T.M.Hamilton's "Colonial Frontier Guns" in which he discusses 2 Carolina guns,one excavated and the other a complete gun. He has recently expanded that segment in a subsequent paper. There is a fine example of a Carolina gun built by John Bumford who supplied guns to the Board of Ordnance 1756-1771.This is the gun with the floral patterns painted on the butt stock. and which is in the Colonial Williamsburg collection.For further material on Hamilton's archealogical typography see his earlier book,"Early Indian Trade Guns: 1625-1775"as well as "Firearms on the Frontier: Guns at Fort Michilimackinac 1715-1781" based on archealogical work at Ft. Michilinackinac which was built by the French in 1715 and taken over by the English in 1761 and occupied by them for some 65 years until about 1800.
I haven't seen the book mentioned by Mike and Jason but I assume that the author is Buck Conner who has a good bit of information on the Northwest gun.on the internet and I will probably be adding it to my library on early guns..I do agree that the Carolina / Type G guns are somewhat earlier than the Northwest guns which seem to derive from English common muskets of the early 18th century.So far as I know the earliest dated Northwest gun is one found in a burial at Rock Island in Lake Michigan and which had a lock plate dated [17]62. Interestingly the brass dragon sideplate with cast in scales on that [17]62 gun is identical to the dragon side plate on the O'Conner Chief's gun shown at PP.73,78-79. Also on PP.66-67 of "Colonial Frontier Guns",Hamilton dates that particular side plate as "made during the late 18th and first three quarters of the 19th centuries" He had not seen the information from Rock Island when he wrote his book.I hope this helps.
Tom Patton

 

[Wes/Tex]

Track has a couple on their site. Pretty pricey but the one by Lester Schowe even has proofmarks hand-engraved in the barrel. As for authenticity to style, I'll bow to someone who has the reference material to compare. eace:

 

[Okwaho]

These are 2 superb English Carolina guns. One is made by Jack Brooks,a fine maker in Colorado,who sells kits for these guns and the other is probably made from one of his kits.The one by Jack himself would be my preference since it's a copy of the Bumford gun I mentioned in my post with the floral painting which is in Colonial Williamsburg.Here is a classic example of getting what you pay for. I know of at least one other maker of these guns but I don't know how expensive he is and haven't sat down and pored over one of his guns.If I were interested in these guns,I would print out both of them for future reference.
Tom Patton :thumbsup:

 

[gunmaker43]

Clay Smith makes both guns & kits of "Bumford" type.

 

[Dane]

Mike Brooks

 

[LRB]

Ben Coogle. Type G guns and kits with parts copied directly from original relic finds.

 

[matt denison]

Research on type G guns should start with a copy of T.M. Hamiltons "Colonial Frontier Guns". The book is dated but parts is parts and he shows many in that book. The book is still available, easy to find and cheap at under $20.00 last time I saw it for sale. (my copy is ? 15 or 20 years old, well thumbed, and the original price of $12.50 inside the front cover)

Mark Sage did an in-depth and very good article with overview in Muzzleloader magazine about a year ago. Contact them for a back issue. Again, cheap and available information.

Originals are scarce as hens teeth, maybe scarcer. Most of what is known about them is from excavated parts.

 

[Rod Lassey]

I just noticed the original post was from 2005, and has been resurrected. Did the Carolina gun ever get built?

Rod

 

[JOHN F]

damn rod from 2005 the barrel would have a nice patina by now.. I second clay smith , mike brooks or mike siedelman. he did a really nice bumford musket ..

 

[matt denison]

I just noticed the original post was from 2005, and has been resurrected. Did the Carolina gun ever get built?

Rod

few!! waste of time i quit

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Here are two photos of the Bumford gun, it is a version of the Type G or Carolina gun, note the painted stock. There is a lot of information on the web about this gun.






I built a copy of the Type G from Hamiltons's book. The biggest problem I had when building one was finding a foward facing dragon side plate.

Most of the side plates avaible have the head looking backwards. I used one to finish the gun but I guess I will have to try to make one from scratch.

 

[matt denison]

Like this one? Look at the fifth one down.
http://www.northstarwest.com/sights_side_plates.aspx

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

I like the lines on this musket! I bet it would shoulder very well!

 

[jdkerstetter]

There's Jack Brooks also:
http://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=2331748

....and if you google Jack Brooks Type G Trade Gun the first post that pops up will be his rendition of the Bumford gun above.

For more fun, just google Blue Type G Trade Gun and see what pops up.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[George]

Don't know if this is appropriate, but those in the know can probably decide...

From Revolutionary Records, Volume I (Virginia), by
Gaius Marcus Brumbaugh, page 237.

"...the youth of Williamsburg formed themselves into a military corps and chose Henry Nicholson as their Capt.; that on Dunmore's flight from Williamsburg, they repaired to the magazine and armed themselves with blue painted stock guns kept for the purpose of distributing among the Indians, and equip't as the minute men volunteers in military garb,..."

Spence

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Thanks Laffindog.

You saved me a lot of time and effort.

You know this internet thing just might catch on. :grin: :grin:

Thanks again

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Thanks Laughindog.

You saved me a lot of time and effort.

You know this internet thing just might catch on. :grin: :grin:

Thanks again

 

[54ball]

In 1753 another group of 400 guns which first used the term"Northwest" to denote a type of barrel for Indian guns and is the first recorded instance of 2 distinct types of guns,"Chiefs" and "common" guns.

The Board of ordnance bought no more guns{ except for 8 "large fowling pieces" 1737-1738 with only one known surviving example}until a large group of Ordnance sponsored Indian guns were made by 18 Birmingham contractors who delivered Chief's and Common guns,"rifles" and pistols intended for gifts to the Canadian and other British-allied Indins in the Gulf Coast area of the Southern United States during the War of 1812.Each of these closely followed the commercial types being made at the time A total of 26,801 guns were made between 1813 and 1816 most of them arriving too late for the war.
In addition the Brirish Gun Barrel Control Act of 1855 still included "Carolina" guns in the small arms category.It is clear then that the guns sent over for sale or trade as well as Indian gifts were classified as Carolina Guns and that the archealogical remains of these guns used by Indians were classified as Type G.

.I do agree that the Carolina / Type G guns are somewhat earlier than the Northwest guns which seem to derive from English common muskets of the early 18th century.So far as I know the earliest dated Northwest gun is one found in a burial at Rock Island in Lake Michigan and which had a lock plate dated [17]62.

Tom,
I edited some of your quote due to length.

few!! waste of time i quit

Please not so fast Matt.

In some histories I've read, British Marine Major Nichols landed with some 300 or so marines and built a fort on the Apalachicola River in May 1814. Their mission was to train the Creeks and Seminoles at that time at war with the United States. It is said they had as many as 10,000 muskets to arm the Indians. When that fort later known as the Negro fort was blown up in 1816, there were the remains of 2500 muskets left in the magazine.

Could these guns have been Carolina Guns? Northwest guns? Could some these relic Type Gs date to the early 19th Century?
The 1855 reference is interesting. Does that mean Carolina was a pattern?
In some of the later paintings of Seminoles it appears that they are holding what looks like type Gs.
I do know that some of the guns depicted in paintings are ambiguous at best.

 

[54ball]

British Gun Barrel Proof Act of 1855

Third Class-Comprising every Description of single-barreled Birding and Fowling Pieces for firing small shot ; and also those known by the Names of Danish, Dutch, Carolina, and Spanish