Chamber in barrel

[F.G. Ford]

Has anybody tried reaming a bottleneck in muzzleloader :hmm: a contour like a 30-30, or 38-40.
Would this help in velocity?
Just the idea of rifleing in the powder chamber, doesn't seem right, although it has been done for a few years.
Any input to this screwball idea would be appreciated.
Best Regards
Old Ford

 

[Birddog6]

It could possibly work IF you would have an exact load to fill that hole you made, just to the peak every time with the ball on top of it right at the lands of the rifling........ otherwise you would have a air gap in the chamber if it were less of a charge & would ring or burst the barrel most likely when it ignited & the ball hits that bottleneck........
You may need a thicker chamber than we use to withstand the chamber pressure should it be much of a bottleneck, and also tougher steel than the steel most ML'ers barrels are made of.

When shooting a cartridge gun you have it all contained & the bullet is sitting right at the lands of the barrel. Also the steel the chamber & barrel is a much toughter steel in todays modern barrels.

 

[paulvallandigham]

the barrels today can take the pressure, but how would you clean a muzzle loader with such a " bottle Neck " chamber??? And I certanly would not want a flintlock vent hole coming out the side of such a chamber! Rather than do something that would raise pressures- for what?- stick with the old straight sided barrels and chambers, use black powder, percussion of flint, or matchlock ignition( okay, Wheellock, too) and leave the higher pressure stuff to modern breechloaders, with casings that are able to withstand thousands of pounds of pressure all by themselves.

IF you want to shoot a high pressure gun, then go modern. The purpose of shooting Black Powder is to shoot traditional guns, the traditional ways, with all the restriction that imposes on the shooter as to choice of bullets, velocity, range, when it comes to target shooting, and hunting. No one forces you to accept those limitations. If you don't like the fit, buy some other pair of gloves.

 

[noahmercy]

How do, Old Ford.

I had given this very idea some thought a few years ago and came to a couple conclusions;

There were few big bottlenecked black powder rifle cartridges over the years. Why? They are not any more efficient than straight-walled cartridges firing the same amount of powder.

The straight walled numbers were easier and less expensive to manufacture, both brass and chambers.

A given diameter bore could be had with a correspondingly smaller barrel for straight-walled cartridges than for bottlenecks, resulting in a lighter firearm.

These factors can be applied to muzzleloaders. An oversized "chamber" in a frontstuffer would result in a heavier, more expensive firearm without offering any advantage in ballistics. I figure that's why it hasn't happened.

:thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

The shape you suggest reminds me of my .43 Spanish Cartridge. It looks like a .30-30 on steroids! Causes folks to come to a rapid stop when they see some of those on my shooting bench. :grin:
These and the similar caliber Egyption cartridges were created for the Remington Rolling Block rifles.
There was (and is) some debate as to whether the bottle neck is better or worse in a black powder gun and I have never seen proof of either side of the arguement.

As for creating a larger diameter powder chamber in a muzzleloader it does bring up the point made by others. It would be very difficult to clean from the muzzle and if it was loaded with a light load, the ball/bullet would end up in the chamber and not seated in the bore like it should be.
If a heavy powder charge than what the chamber could accomodate was used, then there would still be powder in the bore before ignition so nothing is gained over the existing powder in the bore design we all use.

To me it sounds like some extra work with nothing to gain.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Take a look at Steve Garbe's Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Manual. He gives data for both straight wall and bottle neck cases using the same bullet. The bottle neck cases never seem to give the close SDV and accuracy of the straight wall cases. If anyone knows how to make them work it would be Steve, or Mike Venturino, his co-author.

 

[jimeckersley]

Has anybody tried reaming a bottleneck in muzzleloader contour like a 30-30, or 38-40.

This actually was done (similar concept) in England by Joseph Manton. He utilized the Nock's Patent Breech. I'm including pictures below. Notice the screw which allowed cleanout of the anti chamber in the breech. The Manton rifles and shotguns were noted for their very fast flint lock ignition.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Let me say to one and all, I'm a very tried and true traditionalist ( muzzleloader )
I appreciate the information on the application of " Nock's breach.
I thought that a smooth, or tapered chamber might improve cleaning and burning, however the idea of a loose ball, or air gap between ball and powder did not enter the formlae.
Besides we all know them thar "catrige" things will never catch on.
Thank you for the information and best regards
Old Ford

 

[Zonie]

JPerryE: Thanks for the good pictures.
The chamber on the left is sometimes called the English chamber. Manton designed it to get around Nock's Patent Breech's "patent" and the basic idea is in common use in both the TC Hawken and the Lyman GPR.

As I understand it, the idea behind both of these chambers was the smaller chamber would create a jet of high temperature flame which would better ignite the main charge.
Recent testing has shown that the English chamber does have slightly better velocity and much better standard deviation numbers than the typical side drum breeches.

Both of these, in my mind, are the reverse of the idea first posted here though. These have a smaller chamber feeding a larger bore sized powder chamber while with the bottle neck design the powder chamber is large and feeds the smaller bore.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I can see where Nock's breech would speed ignition since it brings the powder chamber closer to the lock while still permitting a thick, strong breech. The other version however, seems a bassackward approach, making the flash channel much longer, rather like that of a Lyman or T/C caplock.

 

[jimeckersley]

Another problem with a "chamber" in a muzzleloader is that unless there were a "stop" for the ball before the chamber, a ball could be lost forever if loaded without powder. Course, I know that no one on this forum has ever loaded a ball without powder under it!

 

[jimeckersley]

It's my understanding that for the very fast ignition requirements, Manton did use the Nock's Breech. Probably for his more demanding clients.

The ignition chamber was much closer to the pan. Some people who have fired his shotguns with a Nock's Breech say they are as fast as a cap lock.

 

[RedFeather]

Hey, it might make a more efficient gun, but cleaning would be prohibitive. Plus you would have to test-debreech-rechamber-test for the optimum load and then stick with it. Or maybe use a filler on top. Even so, the successive foulings would quickly displace the powder in the "chamber" area making the loads shift in weight.