charge for REAL bullet

[nmubowyer]

Anybody got a suggested powder charge for my 320 gr lee REAL bullets out of a 24 inch barrel. most shots will be 50 yards or less on whitetails with big bodies as far as whitetails go. I was thinkin of 100 grains but I dont wanna just blast thru if I can get more damage out of a slower moving projectile.

thanks

 

[BrownBear]

Try 80 grains of 3f or Pyro P. Be sure to put a lubed felt wad between the REAL and the powder for best accuracy. And you know of course, that REALs work best when cast of the purest lead you can find.

 

[Bountyhunter]

You dont say what caliber. Just keep in mind the .45-70-500 is an effective horse killer at 600 yards. That is .45 Caliber, 70 grains of very compressed 2FF, and a 500 grain dead soft boolit....The carbine load was 55 grains of powder with a 405 grain bullet. It obviously did not have the range of the rifle, but was an effective killer to 200 yards. Sometimes we forget our analogies...your bullet is somewhat less than the 400 range, but play with some loads. Accuracy is paramount. Like Real Estate, location, location, location. Its all about shot placement. Get a box of old magazines or phone books, wet them up. Set them out at 50 yards and touch off your load. Prepare to be amazed at where you find the bullet.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Without knowing what caliber your gun is, giving you a load suggestion is a bit difficult. But, keep in mind that the .50-70 was the gun Buffalo Bill used to kill Buffalo for the Railroads, and the .45-70 was the military cartridge for the U.S.Army from 1873, to 1896, when the .30-40 Krag cartridge was adopted.

At 50 yards and under, I don't see ANY need for a Conical at all when hunting deer, no matter what the size of the deer is. These are soft skinned, soft boned animals. They eat grass, for Pete's Sake! A .50 or .54 RB is all you could possibly want to kill deer at those ranges, and a .45 caliber rifle shooting RB will take deer of any size quite nicely.

More than 70 grains of any powder is going to be a waste of powder, and power. Those big slugs are most likely going to completely penetrate a deer on a broadside shot, expending the rest of their energy on the ground behind the animal. Just how Dead does dead have to be for you?? If will do penetration testing with RBs, and then with a couple of these conicals for comparison, you will be surprised at how well the RBs do, and the damage they do. The conicals will likely penetrate further, but they usually don't expand like the RB will, and thus do less damage going through.

Remember, modern bullets kill because they are high velocity, and create a secondary wound channel from the vacuum created by the sonic wave coming off the nose of the bullet. This secondary wound channel is 3 times the diameter of the primary wound channel, and kills by shocking the central nervous system, and tearing apart blood vessels so that there is an instant and rapid drop in Blood Pressure that causes the animal to collapse and become unconscious while it bleeds out.

YOU CANNOT SHOOT THESE LEAD CONICALS AT SPEEDS FAST ENOUGH TO CREATE THIS SECONDARY WOUND CHANNEL.

This is why the pure lead, Round Ball is by far the better choice of projectiles to use to kill deer at close ranges.

 

[longcruise]

Your 24 inch barrel will be one limitation. I'm not saying it's too short, but there will be a velocity limit for your powder/slug/barrel length combo. The only way to know what the results are is to employ a chronograph.

I used to shoot 370 grain maxi balls in my .50 cal with 28 inch barrel and my standard load was 100 grains of ff. Later when the "lie detector" (chronograph :haha: ) was used some interesting things came to light. For example, 80 grains of ff pushed the slug along right at 1300 fps give or take a very few fps. (As an aside, Pyrodex RS shot exactly the same). One hundred grains of ff only took it to about 1340 fps. OTOH, it took the recoil way up! :shocked2: Dropping to 70 grains of ff still gave 1280 to 1290 fps, so for me it was not hard to decide to go with 70 or 80 grains as max load since the return on any more than 80 was not worth it.

Just some guesses here on my part, but I'm thinking that with your 24 inch barrel, more than 70 grains of ff will be powder burned with little return in performance. I would also predict that 70 grains off ff in your barrel will probably put your 320 grain slug in the 1260 to 1290 fps range.

That is plenty for deer at 50 yards and to repeat what other's have already said, so would a round ball be plenty for deer at 50 yards with velocity in the 1450 to 1550 fps range. Not just a case of the round ball being good enough, but truly a case of the round ball being superior at these velocities and distances. Not everyone will agree, but after a few field "autopsies" of deer and or elk killed with conicals and round balls you too would become a "believer" :grin:

The last animal I killed with a conical was back in 1977 and that was a bull elk with a .50 maxi ball over 70 grains of ff at a range (measured) of 131 yards. The elk died very slow. Stayed on it's feet for almost a minute. OTOH, elk hit with a round ball usually are down within 10 seconds. Same for deer. Also, a medium sized buck that I hit with a maxi at a range of 45 yards walked over 100 yards and then layed down. He was still very much alive 10 minutes later when I came up on him. Was not a bad hit, took front side lung in the center and the back end of the other lung.

The maxi and R-E-A-L have one thing in common and that is they are a bit pointy. It's the front flat of the bullet that does the work at ml conical velocities and neither of those slugs have that needed flat.

Sorry to ramble.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I've shot that slug out of my .50 useing 70gr 3F. fairly stiff recoil. over that charge groups opened up. I have 24" bbl also.

 

[nmubowyer]

thanks guys its a .50 by the way

 

[paulvallandigham]

With a 24 inch barrel, your gun will burn about 55 grains of powder efficiently, using the Davenport formula. Using a Lee R.E.A.L. slug, might allow you to shoot more powder, and using one of those lead bullets that weight over 300 grains is definitely going to give you more recoil! 55 grains of FFFg powder behind a PRB will give you more than 1250 fps. which is more than enough for 50 yard and less deer hunting. That is what those short barreled rifles are sold for- short range shooting. Again, its the weight of the ball, NOT ITS VELOCITY that gives the penetration. They typical buck Whitetail deer is rather narrow from one side of the chest to the other, rarely going more than 8-10 inches, and more often being closer to 6 inches. They may be broader across the shoulders, but not back behind the leg, where the heart/lung shot should be taken on a broadside shot.

Fill some plastic milk cartons with water, and line a couple of them up. Try your load on them to see how far the ball penetrates. You will be surprised.Each gallon container is at least 8 inches wide, BTW.

 

[Don]

I shoot the 320 grain TC maxi out of my cva bobcat with 70 grains of pyro RS and get clover leaf patterns at 50 yards. I don't believe that a large powder charge is needed just an accurate load.

Don

 

[rickjf]

If it is the REAL 320 it must be .50. I last week began using that in my flintlock. I had cast them from wheel weights. Very hard to load. I will use lead next time. 90 grains of 2f gave quite a kick. I am planning on using it for a feral hog hunt in a couple of weeks. They say the hogs are hard to kill because of s "shield" I bet that wheel weight slug would go right through one. This will be my first flintlock hunt. If what I learn here I need to do this at 70 yard or less. I will report my results

 

[brubincam]

-----I heard that the short real bullits work in slow twist barrels-----

 

[gmww]

Anybody got a suggested powder charge for my 320 gr lee REAL bullets out of a 24 inch barrel. most shots will be 50 yards or less on whitetails with big bodies as far as whitetails go. I was thinkin of 100 grains but I dont wanna just blast thru if I can get more damage out of a slower moving projectile.

thanks

I found this in the Lyman Black Powder handbook. I know it's not a REAL but is gets you in the ball park as far as weight. It's based on a .50 cal. 24", 1-48" twist barrel.

[/IMG]

 

[Davemuzz]

Remember, modern bullets kill because they are high velocity, and create a secondary wound channel from the vacuum created by the sonic wave coming off the nose of the bullet. This secondary wound channel is 3 times the diameter of the primary wound channel, and kills by shocking the central nervous system, and tearing apart blood vessels so that there is an instant and rapid drop in Blood Pressure that causes the animal to collapse and become unconscious while it bleeds out.

YOU CANNOT SHOOT THESE LEAD CONICALS AT SPEEDS FAST ENOUGH TO CREATE THIS SECONDARY WOUND CHANNEL.

This is why the pure lead, Round Ball is by far the better choice of projectiles to use to kill deer at close ranges.

Where in the world did you get this stuff at? Bullets kill from a 2-nd-ary wound channel? WHAT??? Does that mean RB's creat these secondary wound channels? Or do they create....like Channel 11...NBC or sumpin?

RB's are better choices than conicals? :rotf: Secondary wound channels! :rotf: Modern bullets kill because of speed? :shocked2: I thought they killed because they punch a big 'ol hole all the way thru! :youcrazy:

I find your analysis to be interesting. :rotf:

Dave

 

[rickjf]

If the kick on this end means anything, then that 320 REAL slug ought to do a lot better than the round ball. :surrender: I molded a lot of REAL slugs and a lot of round balls today. I trust both. Those old PRB's have killed lots of deer. I saving the conicals for the hogs.

 

[zodd]

Remember, modern bullets kill because they are high velocity, and create a secondary wound channel from the vacuum created by the sonic wave coming off the nose of the bullet. This secondary wound channel is 3 times the diameter of the primary wound channel, and kills by shocking the central nervous system, and tearing apart blood vessels so that there is an instant and rapid drop in Blood Pressure that causes the animal to collapse and become unconscious while it bleeds out.

YOU CANNOT SHOOT THESE LEAD CONICALS AT SPEEDS FAST ENOUGH TO CREATE THIS SECONDARY WOUND CHANNEL.

This is why the pure lead, Round Ball is by far the better choice of projectiles to use to kill deer at close ranges.

Where in the world did you get this stuff at? Bullets kill from a 2-nd-ary wound channel? WHAT??? Does that mean RB's creat these secondary wound channels? Or do they create....like Channel 11...NBC or sumpin?

RB's are better choices than conicals? :rotf: Secondary wound channels! :rotf: Modern bullets kill because of speed? :shocked2: I thought they killed because they punch a big 'ol hole all the way thru! :youcrazy:

I find your analysis to be interesting. :rotf:

Dave

hi Dave- think you need to re-read what Paul actually wrote--cheers zodd

 

[Davemuzz]

Well, let's compare the numbers. If you look at the posted data for the Buffalo HP Conical, 350 grain...and you load 100 grains of powder...you get a MV of 1499.

Now, let's compare that to my "trusty" 45-70 government round as shot from my Marlin 1895XLR using a Cast Performance 405 grain lead gas check bullet and a trap door load of Varget powder. 40 grains of Varget will get you 1392MV from the Marlin.

Well...yes you say...but the 405 is a heavier bullet....but I say....so what? A conical is a conical is a conical.

Well, all secondary wound "stuff" aside....my 405 grain bullet doesn't expand all that much (not like a hollow point that will take a hind quarter of a whitetail out) but at 100 yards it will punch a hole right thru the whitetail. And those same said whitetail don't run far...in fact, most just drop right there.

I've killed a lot of whitetail with a roundball, and short of a plug thru the heart or a spine hit, I've not ever had one drop right there with a RB.

RB's create some difficult blood trails to follow at times. Conicals and 405 grain Cast Performance bullets....not so much.

I look at it like this....would you rather hit your mark with a bicycle going 50mph....or a cement truck going 50mph? Me....I'll take the cement truck every time.

Conicals'=cement trucks.

Simple formula.

MHO

Dave

 

[longcruise]

I think the main difference between your 45-70-405 load and the real and maxi ml load is the shape of the nose. You are shooting a flat nose slug that makes a "splash" all the way through and gives an excellent wound channel. Probably do the job equally well all the way down to 800 fps or so. The maxi and real have a cone shape nose and just don't make the "splash".

FWIW, I think a properly designed conical would make a more than satisfactory wound channel and the performance of all those flat nose 45-70 slugs and .44 to .475 revolver slugs starting out at 1100 to 1200 fps pretty much indicate so as well.

Veral Smith has done some interesting research on this and you can read it in his book titled "jacketed bullet performance with cast bullets". He theorizes based on his experiments and other hunter's field reports that the flat nose slug sends a spray (as opposed to sonic wave) of liquified flesh at a near 90 degree angle that cuts a wound channel larger than the bullet meplat size. One of the findings that he felt supported his theory was the discovery that the idea that wadcutters would punch a nice wound channel was just not so. The wound channel of the wadcutters was directly related to the size of the meplat of the wadcutter and while the wadcutter does cut a nice clean hole in paper, the shoulder of the wadcutter does not seem to create any wound channel at all in flesh but rather just follows through the channel created by the meplat of the wadcutter. Conclusion was that a wadcutter with a large wide meplat worked pretty good and the small meplats found on some performed very poorly on game.

 

[tg]

"
Well, let's compare the numbers"

You cannot achive a valid comparison on the game taking capabilities of the PRB/conical using mathematics it is an apples and oranges thing. often the ball will do as well or better depending on the range,many longtime hunters who have used both will give testimony to this.At any rate I really don't care to get into the discussion of modern projectiles again I don't think this forum is really the place for that.

 

[Rat Trapper]

One of the reasons I tried the Hornady Great Plains bullets was it is a hollow point semi wad cutter. I also found the Hornady the fit my rifles bores tighter than Maxi balls. In my rifles the Hornady great plains also shoot smaller groups than the maxi ball/hunter bullets. On deer a PRB will work just fine also, it all depends on what your rifle shoot best. The REAL bullets in my rifles load easier than the Hornady GP bullets but don't shoot as well. However since I melt my own they are cheaper and just fine for gong shooting or plinking.