Choosing leather for shooting pouch

[In Over My Head]

I bought T. C. Albert's book on Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch. I read it, it is now lost in my house.

I think I remember to use 3 to 4 oz. leather. but what type?

What type of leather can I buy from easy to access sources such as Tandy that is PC/HC or not obviously not PC/HC?

TIA!

 

[Artificer]

Here's hoping Labonte and CaptJas will chime in...

Generally speaking for HC/PC correct leather = DO NOT use Chrome Tanned Leather!

Period leathers were/are Vegetable Tanned or aka Oak Tanned. Today there are different qualities of "Veg Tanned" leather. The bottom quality is often referred to as the Utility grade and has the most holes and scars in the hide. I have used this grade when I found a piece where the holes/scars did not interfere with what I wanted to make from the leather. Craftsman grade is a step up from that and is a good choice. Some of the best quality Veg Tanned leather I have seen or heard about is Hermann Oak Leather and some Tandy store locations carry it.

If you can, I strongly advise you go to a local Tandy Store or other Leather Retail outlet near you and examine the leather they have for sale. The reason for this is so you can get the "feel" of the leather or what is known as the "Temper" of the leather. Temper has to do with how well it will bend without distortion and how soft the leather is. Probably not the best definition, but that is the way I think of it.

Every so often Tandy does a sale on single or double shoulders of leather. Though they are advertised as 4-5 ounce weight, I dug through a large pile at my local store and found many good pieces that actually were in the 3-4 ounce weight. What I like about using shoulders is that the temper is often what I want and the leather won't stretch like belly leather. So you can make both the pouch/bag and straps from it. I found some HUGE pieces of leather in that pile with little or no damage. Other pieces were small and had damage, scars or holes that I would not use. Another reason to go to the store and pick out your leather if you possibly can. Do not be afraid to pull EVERY single hide out of the pile to examine it and see if it will fit your needs.

Here is one you might consider. Oh, it is best to make the strap/straps from the straight cut area that is closer to the back of the animal and make the pouch/bag parts from the area further away: http://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/craftsman-oak-tooling-leather-sides

Personally I don't like to buy leather I can not feel and examine ahead of time. However, here is another source if you are not near a leather store:
http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merch...t_Code=1680-328-050&Category_Code=545-500-000

I have made a few pouches from Oil Tanned leather in the past, but not for a long time. Maybe Brown Bear will chime in on that.

Gus

 

[jethro224]

I have made a few pouches from Oil Tanned leather in the past,

That is my favorite. The 4.5oz works very well for me. :thumbsup:

 

[In Over My Head]

Thank you both. Looks like there are more acceptable choices than I knew.

Tandy sends me 'clearance special' e-mails once or twice a week and I've been tempted to grab something and see how it works given the attractive prices. But it sounds like I'd be better off planning a trip to one of their stores than buying their picked-over clearance stock.

On the other hand, Crazy Crow's leather seems to come highly recommended.

(On the third hand, I suppose visiting a store would tempt me into buying a couple of appropriate tools.)

Thanks again.

 

[longcruise]

I get some good deals at Tandy by watching their flyers but also check out the in store managers specials. Got several good deals that way.

Per your original question, I prefer veg tanned around 3oz. My first bag was made with too heavy leather and was a bear to work with and slow and hard to break in.

Best advice I can give you is "find TC's book". Once you have made a few from his patterns you will be off and running making your own patterns.

One caution on his book. I purchased it from the very first run and after making a few bags I found a pattern that just couldn't " work ". I brought it to his attention and he offered to provide a corrected one but I declined as I had " graduated " to making my own. My book is also lost but if I can find it I'll point out the pattern for you. It most likely has been corrected in more recent printings.

 

[Artificer]

Tandy’s “clearance specials” doesn’t automatically mean the leather is picked over junk, it is just that they occasionally make large purchases of leather and sell the hides or pieces at a lower price, just to move the excess inventory.

To give an example, a few months ago when they ran a special on the 4-5 oz. half shoulders I mentioned earlier, there must have been at least 50 to 60 pieces (or more) of leather in the pile. To be polite, I asked the store manager if I could go through the entire pile and he grinned and said “Sure.” He then showed me a table where I could lay them out to look at each one. There were only maybe 6 pieces in that pile that were absolutely not acceptable due to a small amount of useable leather from scars and other defects. I was very pleasantly surprised that some of the pieces had at least 50 percent more useable leather and in some cases, almost double the useable leather than other pieces. I actually asked the store manager if the larger pieces were “in the right pile,” because of the large variances in size and useable leather. Grin. OK, so first I culled the pieces that had too many scars or damage or too little leather and put them in a reject pile. As I was handling the pieces and got the feel of them, I added more pieces that were too thick or had too much variation in thickness and those went into the reject pile. Don’t get me wrong, they were useable pieces of leather, just not as good as other pieces for what I wanted to use the leather. The “good” pile originally had about 30 pieces and all of them were good bargains for the special price. I further culled them for Temper for use as Shooting Pouches and the amount of useable leather. That brought the pile down to about a dozen and any of them were a REALLY good buy at the price. I culled that pile down to 5 pieces and I just could not believe how much useable leather and in the acceptable Temper there was in those pieces. The pieces I chose were about 4 oz. thickness or perhaps a little less, except for one hide I wanted for a different project. I was EXTREMELY pleased with all 5 pieces, much more than I expected when I walked in the store.

Then I asked about needles and awls and some other items and this brings to mind something I would offer to new leather workers about Tandy stores. Since the early 1970’s, I have walked into Tandy Stores from Oceanside, CA to Virginia and many stores in between. The knowledge of the store owner’s/operators varied by a huge amount from store to store. The BEST store I was ever in was in the 70’s in Fredericksburg, VA. It was run by a couple in their 50’s and they were extremely knowledgeable on all types of leatherworking. They actually showed me many things I did not know. More than a few times I walked in wanting a special cut of leather and they took me in the back room, showed me different hides that would work for what I wanted and then custom cut the leather for me. They only charged a slight increase for doing this and it was WELL worth the slight additional cost. However, in other stores, the knowledge of some of the owner’s/operators was very limited overall or very limited in the kind of leather working I was interested in. It was a good thing I knew what I wanted this last time when I walked into my local Tandy store as they were not very knowledgeable about what size awls and thread to use with what needles. Don’t get me wrong, they were nice and helpful people, though. Though I needed more items, they did not have some of the items I needed.

Even if you think you are only ever going to make one shooting pouch, there is another book besides T.C. Albert’s book I most strongly recommend you buy and that is The Art Of Hand Sewing Leather, by Al Stohlman. Though the book has been out a long time, there is NONE better on the subject. It was first published a few years after I began doing amateur leather work and I STILL refer back to it from time to time. http://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/the-art-of-hand-sewing-leather-book

I would also highly encourage you to look through the archives in this section for more information and threads on awls, thread, tools, etc. Look especially for posts by Labonte and CaptJas as they have forgotten more about leather working than many/most of us will ever know. We have been blessed they have so generously passed along so much great information.

Gus

 

[LRB]

Me too. Depends on what you want as an end result. There are things that can be done with vege-tan that cannot be done with oil-tan, but overall I prefer oil tan for most bags.

 

[MSW]

I would go with four or five oz veg. tanned - this has worked well for me in the past. I would suspect that your dye and method will have a big impact on the HC/PC dimension, but since I don't worry about HC/PC very much, I can't speak to that aspect of your question. A very sharp awl and good Irish linen thread can make a world of difference.

(Here's a link: http://www.basketmakerscatalog.com/ps/121-waxed-linen-4-ply
these folks are very accommodating)

Good luck with your project!

 

[LaBonte]

1) re: Oil Tan - this is not a true oil tan in the trade is known as oil re-tan i.e. it is a chrome tanned leather that then goes through a an oil process.
2) Veg/bark/Oak Tan: This the traditional cowhide tanning method used for the great bulk of period shot pouches, especially the commercial/pro made ones.

HC/PC - if this matters than your bags should be made from:
1) veg tanned cowhide, the most commonly available material.
2)Veg tanned deer or elk hide - a period correct tannage, but expensive since it's a boutique/specialty tannage and not a commercial one.
3)True oil tan - The German tanned deer hides from Crazy Crow are the same oil tannage as used back when. In fact German tan is the method used for the vast majority of the leather breeches. A great alternative to real brain tan at a less expensive price.
4) Brain tan elk or deer - if making a native or native inspired bag. Expensive since again it is supplied only by small boutique/specialty vendors.
5) Commercial elk and buck skin - chrome tanned

FYI - chrome tanned leather was not developed until the 1860's and was not produced commercially until the 1880's.

Dealer recommendations - FWIW I've been a pro leather crafter since 1971 and t was my full time job for the last 18 years so these are my observations based on that experience:
1) Tandy - like many I used Tandy when beginning and for many years after, but starting in the 1980's their quality began to suffer and I've used some since than but 8 out of 10 times I had to return it. IF you have experience or not some one who does and you can go to the store to go through their stacks, then go for it, but if you have to buy via mail then there are better options, especially since their prices are often higher than other suppliers.
2) My favorite for the last 10 years: RJF Leather. This some of the finest veg tan I've ever used. Reportedly it is old time pit tanned with oak from Portugal. Roger is the man. I mostly use his doeble shoulders which run around 13 s/ft, IMO the best buy for the buck, although he sells full side as well for those who may need a larger piece. Like most dealers it comes in 3 grades (the grades vary in name from tannery to tannery) A, B, & C or 1, 2, 3. You order from Roger, he sends the leather and an invoice.
2) Wickett & Craig - buy direct from the tannery. When I use this brand I get the saddle tan rather than the craft tan since the saddle tan is a bit oilier. They generally only sell sides of around 22 s/ft so for the hobbiest they may not be the best. Also you can buy thicker sides and have them split which gives you an almost perfect back side.
3) Herman Oak you can buy from the tannery but there is a 10 side minimum. On the other hand there are several outlets such as Montana Leather who sell HO. Great leather used by a plethora of saddle makers.

leather weight: Leather is sized by it's thickness and or weight. The ounce measurement so often seen is based on the old method of weighing a one square foot piece of the leather. Today it has a thickness equivalent: 1 oz = 1/64" so just multiply the ounces times 1/64" (.016") to get your thickness.

For those folks to whom PC/HC is important than the most commonly used weight of cowhide was 3/4 oz. On the other hand 4/5 can be used IF the weight is closer to 4 oz and yes 3/4 oz is MORE than strong enough and generally holds it shape well.
For softer leather like elk or deer one need to pre-stretch it. Dampen thoroughly, let any excess drip off, then stretch - FWIW - I use a plywood backing and nails to stretch and let it hang/dry for at least 48 hours. The thinner hides like deer may need some type of lining, but elk and German tan (Euro red deer similar to out elk/wapiti) are generally thick enough to hold up well as long as pre-stretched.

Hope that helps

and yes there are several other suppliers such as Ky Leather that sell good quality leather, but I prefer the ones listed since I KNOW the quality is good.

 

[Artificer]

Chuck,

Once again I would like to note my deep appreciation for your generous sharing of information. Thank you ever so much. :hatsoff:

I hope you take it as another compliment that I cut and pasted the following information from another of your posts, as I think CHeale could really use this information as well.

PS for wax I use a 60/40mix of beeswax and rosin - a simplified version of coad (Greg G will know what I'm talking about). With the added rosin it makes the thread sticker and helps lock the thread in place, plus rosin is an anti-fungal/bacteria so it helps preserve the thread.
For needles : Harness needles - I like the John James or Osborne brands best. For three cord I use a #2 needle and for 5 cord a #0 needle.
A little trick - take a larger needle such as a 00 and mount in a handle to use a fid to open up holes if need be when back stitching. And yes I agree with Artificer - if you're going to sew leather get a copy of that book, but also take a look at the videos by Nigel Armitage, a master British crafter.

To CHeale ,

The information Chuck mentions on needles is invaluable and something a lot of retail leather stores do not often tell you about or know. Too often when you ask for stitching needles, they just point to what they have, but often don't know to recommend the correct size for the kind of thread you may use.

I have to admit I was not entirely sure what Chuck meant when he talked about using a larger needle as a fid when backstitching, when I first read that. CaptJas recently went to a lot of trouble to help me get copies of the DVD’s that Eric Myall put out on making 18th century leather items. They are fabulous. Though much of the information in those DVD’s were things I already knew, I learned new things and it helped me understand what Chuck meant in this case. At the ends of a line of stitching, most saddle makers stitch backward about 3 holes into the previously stitched line (Back Stitching) and then cut the threads off clean. If you have a good sharp awl and you are new to stitching, when you back stitch, you risk cutting through the previous stitches when you back stitch. So, to open the holes in those last three stitches to hand sew through them again, you use the slightly larger needle that won’t cut the stitches. This is something I learned some time ago through making mistakes and having cut into my stitches when backstitching a few times ”“ I guess I just didn’t quite understand the term “fid.”

Here is a link to videos that Chuck mentioned and done by Nigel Armitage. They are well worth your time to go through them, even for those who have done some leather work previously. Scroll down for Saddle Stitch in Detail and Sharpening a Saddlers Awl, as they are especially useful for new leather workers. https://www.youtube.com/user/Nordicbadger

Gus

 

[In Over My Head]

Thank you LaBonte, Artificer and all. I remain amazed at the breadth and depth of the knowledge on this site and the willingness - indeed, eagerness - to share it.

I will pick up the Stohlman book, re-find the Albert book, and make a point of getting some material in hand to enrich some cold, dark evenings.

Thanks, again!

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Here late with nothing to add except to affirm Chuck's rundown on leather suppliers. For the guy who will be making one or two pouches for himself I would just go with Tandy and hand pick. The caveat to this recommendation is that 1986 or 87 was the last time I was in a Tandy store. If there was one nearby I would check it out. I hear there is now one in Richmond VA and I may stop in next time I am near.

 

[LaBonte]

Capt Jas - I haven't been in one since that time either and now where I live is 160 miles one way so mail order is the only way to go.
When looking for leather tools these days I look for the old ones (EBay as well as several sites offer them). For stamps and similar I look for the old Craftsman ones (the few new stamps I've seen being used are simply crap - including one where the handle bent on the first stroke), make my own (5-6" long stainless bolts from 1/4-1/2" make a great starting point - cut the head off and go for it with a Dremel and files), get them custom made (not cheap but when you need one...), and then there is a Japanese company making them that are a definite upgrade from the new Craftsmans.
As for awls and stitch markers I usually opt for the old ones and either use the blades by Bob Douglas (not cheap but VERY good) or get the ones from CS Osborne and then sharpen and POLISH (IMO being well polished is more important than being sharp0. Another hint - keep a ball of beeswax handy and every third or fourth hole wax the blade. With a well polished/sharpened awl and with the blade waxed I can go through 3/8-1/2" of thick cowhide with little effort albeit I seldom if ever sew anything that thick anyway.

Gus - no problem mi amigo. As for backstitch the best way it go back 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 stitches so both thread show up on the back side. To cut the threads use a very sharp narrow tipped blade (Exact), pull the threads as tight as possible and trim off. The thread will spring back slightly and hide itself. If well waxed the threads will never pullback through.

 

[Artificer]

Gus - no problem mi amigo. As for backstitch the best way it go back 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 stitches so both thread show up on the back side. To cut the threads use a very sharp narrow tipped blade (Exact), pull the threads as tight as possible and trim off. The thread will spring back slightly and hide itself. If well waxed the threads will never pullback through.

Thank you, Chuck. BTW, that is an excellent description of backstitching and thread cut off.

CHeale,

A couple more things because it seems you are new to making leather items.

1. PLEASE Do NOT be tempted to buy a "Sewing Awl Kit/Roller Tool" that are sold in many places. This tool stitches exactly like a sewing machine with one thread just passing through a loop you make with the tool and for THAT reason makes extremely weak stitches. One stitch gets abraded/cut and the whole line of stitches start to unravel. Back in the 70's when Law Enforcement Officers still used leather belts, I got a LOT of practice in repairing their gun belts when that happened to them by pulling out the old thread and hand stitching them. Hand stitching did and does hold up for many, many years, if one or some stitches get abraded/cut. Here is a link to show you what I am talking about and again, Please DO NOT waste your money on one of these!!! http://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/sewing-awl-kit

2. Make sure you take the time to make patterns out of paper for the parts of your pouch. You can ensure everything will fit that way and you use them to lay on the leather to get the most use out of the leather. Some places still have paper grocery bags that make great paper for patterns. Brown Craft paper also works well. Heck, there were times I scotch taped typing paper or lined school paper together to make patterns.

3. To be HC/PC, use linen thread you wax with beeswax and resin combined like Labonte mentioned above. Of course if you want to go to the trouble of using REAL sinew, that is correct as well. However though "Artificial Sinew" is strong and cheap; it ain't correct because it was not harvested from Laboratory cloned/grown Nauga Critters before the 1950's. :haha:

I don't know who actually makes the linen thread that Tandy sells, but below is a link to their 5 cord thread that is correct for such a project. Labonte has recommended Barbours linen thread in the past, but it comes in rather expensive large rolls that many people don't want to buy when they first start out. This costs about Five or Six Bucks.
http://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/unwaxed-linen-thread

Labonte recommended you use #0 needles with this size thread above. Oh, don't buy just two because especially when you begin, it is easy to break a needle. Ask me how I know? :redface: Here they are from Tandy: http://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/harness-needles

Now, 5 cord thread is a bit thick for 3/4 oz. leather and is normally used for thicker leather like belts and knife scabbards. What you can do is strip one or two of the cords out of it to sew thinner leather. In that case, you may want to buy some needles slightly smaller like a Number 1 for 4 cord and Number 2 for 3 Cord,for example.

In a pinch when you need needles fast, you can go to the craft section at Walmart and get a pack of needles and just use the needle that has the smallest eye your thread will fit through. OH, if the needle is pointed, then you can dull and polish the point on a stone or fine Emory Cloth.

Hope this helps.

Gus

 

[htredneck]

One very crucial piece of advice...
When you are using a pair of needle nose pliers to assist in pulling a needle through a tough piece, make sure your thigh is not in the path of the release trajectory.

Holy Mother of God that hurts!
Of course, that is just what I have heard. I wouldn't know about that first hand or anything...

 

[Artificer]

:rotf: I am laughing WITH you, not against you. Yes, you have that correct. :redface:

I have also heard it hurts pretty bad when you stick your hand with a needle or break a needle and stick your hand with it. Of course, I have also only heard about that......

I do wonder why no one ever suggests having Neosporin and Band Aids in their basic "Hand Stitching Kit?" :rotf:

Gus

 

[htredneck]

There is a lot to be said for not swatting at a knat while holding a needle too...

 

[coloradoclyde]

If we are talking about leather....I would like to put a plug in for The Leather Guy. https://www.theleatherguy.org/

 

[BrownBear]

I do wonder why no one ever suggests having Neosporin and Band Aids in their basic "Hand Stitching Kit?"

I have to laugh. I bought a small set of carving knives from Japan. They're intended for linoleum block printers.

Packed right there in the box with the knives was a little envelope of bandaids and first aid instructions! I kid you not! Makes sense when you think about it, but I sure got a laugh when I first saw it. :rotf:

 

[htredneck]

If we are talking about leather....I would like to put a plug in for The Leather Guy. https://www.theleatherguy.org/[/quote]

I will second that.