Click bang

[nebraska steve]

Having never shot flint lock before, I have a question about the time it takes to go bang. I am using Goex fffg in pan and bore. I have experimented with amounts and position of the prime. The rifle is new Cabela's Kentucky. The vent liner is stainless and domed.
Currently I am hearing the flint strike the frizzen, before the bang. The bang is really close to the click, but slow compared to my experience with cap and ball revolvers. I read where someone thought the discharge should be inperceivable from the pulling the trigger. Is this realistic?

 

[nkbj]

Pert near but it really does depend upon the lock, the flint, the hole. Shooting a TC Hawken this weekend I never really noticed a lag even though I know there was one.

 

[Drago]

I just started with a flint and tried 4f, I also got a 4 grain primer and find this faster than just putting some 3f in the pan. I think the smaller amount might be the deal but I also used a new flint so that could be it too. I think there will always be a delay but hope we will soon fail to see it.

 

[Spikebuck]

Mine are almost instantaneous, I also hear the flint hit before the bang, but after watching Brian Beckum's "Real Blackpowder" and "Flintlock and Whitetails" videos, I can see that it can be very instantaneous. His flintlocks are no different than a caplock, from what I saw.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Here ya go, a "clickbang" miss in action. Look close in second 55.

In the half second or so between trigger pull and main charge detonation the javelina in question pivots out of the sighting plane. A clean miss.

Mike misses a javelina

 

[Dphar]

I suggest you watch this video and then read all the Flintlock timing, flintlock vent tests in the featured articles link. http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/siler-high-speed.php
Flintlocks, regardless of the claims of some shooters are not instantaneous.
Flintlock ignition cycle.
Flint strikes frizzen, flint scrapes sparks from frizzen, sparks fall or are thrown into priming, sparks heat powder granules to ignition, priming powder flame propagates and produces heat, heat radiates though vent and heats the powder to ignition point, main charge fires.
Percussion cycle.
Hammer falls on cap, compound detonates, flame shoots into main charge, main charge ignites.
Its faster unless something is very wrong.

Dan

 

[nebraska steve]

I feel my rifle fires about 1/2 second after I pull the trigger. From the slow motion video you calculated .03 seconds which makes that rifle about 94% faster than my rifle. As I suspected I have room for improvement.

 

[ebiggs1]

Here is what I do. Use GOEX 4f to prime and use a goodly amount. It needs to be against the touch hole and if a little trickles in that's OK. The touch hole liner should be .070 and coned.
A sharp Black English flint striking more than ½ way up on the frizzen and at a nearly 60 degree angle.
Do these things and your gun will be a fast as it probably can be without some more in depth mods. :thumbsup:

It is not going to be a cap lock so don't expect it to. :hmm:

 

[rafterob]

It needs to be against the touch hole

:stir: Oh-Oh, here we go....

 

[flyfisher76544]

I read where someone thought the discharge should be inperceivable from the pulling the trigger. Is this realistic?

It is very realistic, but every rifle is different. You have to find what your rifle "likes" as it were. Does it fire best with the priming powder banked away from the touch hole or close to the touch hole, half filled pan versus a few grains of powder. Does the touch-hole need to be a bit larger? Its part of the fun of flintlocks, you learn and grow with the rifle.

 

[Dphar]

.... I read where someone thought the discharge should be inperceivable from the pulling the trigger. Is this realistic?

You can read all sorts of stuff but a lot of it is at odds with the facts.


These two rifles are about as fast as they get.

Link
This is the Hawken style full speed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqkVePDSESg
Dan

 

[hanshi]

Using 4F is faster than 3F in the pan. Also all you need is 1/3 to 1/2 pan full and, yes, it should be banked toward the vent - actually this "banking" is virtually impossible to control since the gun does move around.

A vent hole of at least - all mine are 1/16" - 1/16" and coned from the inside.

Some locks are faster than others. Silers and most of the small to standard size locks are rather fast. I have a Chambers Colonial Va lock on my smoothbore and it is noticeably slower than my Golden age lock. But once that big flint hits the frizzen ignition's about as fast as any of the others. My rifles usually sound like they fire instantaneously but that's actually not the case. They're very fast but still around four times slower than a percussion.

 

[okawbow]

Here's a link to my 1728 French Infantry musket. It doesn't always go off that fast, but with a new flint and the right amount of 3f prime, here's what happens. http://www.flickr.com/photos/20524843@N03/8366214688/in/photostream

 

[Flash Pan Dan]

Birdshot, I observed the same thing happening to you on one of my newer flintlocks. It was slower than my other flint locks. With a little measuring and analysis I concluded that I need a longer flint and it needed to be placed in the jaws of the cock bevel down. What was happening was that the flint I was using was striking the frizzen a little lower than my other flintlocks. Putting the flint in bevel down helped by when I used a slightly longer flint, still with the bevel down, things fell into place.

Now I getting good spark as soon as the flint strikes the frizzen and the frizzen itself is being pushed out of the way sooner. This is my experience YMMV

 

[nebraska steve]

I really appreciate all of the replies. I am not sure what diameter my touchhole is curently but it appears to be some less than 1/16th inch. I will start implimenting suggestions. Now that I have seen some real flinters, I have a goal. As soon as I can I will see about getting some video to compare.

 

[Grenadier1758]

You have the Cabela's Kentucky. I believe that it is made by Pedersoli of Italy and they use a patent breech. That means at the touch hole you have a reduced sized chamber for the powder. That chamber can have oil and fouling that can slow the ignition. Use a smaller caliber brush such as a 22 or 30 caliber brush wrapped with a cleaning cloth to clean and dry that chamber. Push a pipe cleaner through the touch hole. You do need a touch hole that is at least 1/16" diameter. If the pan is igniting quickly then the path to the powder has something that is slowing it down. Do your best toget rid of the crud between the pan and the powder behind the ball.

 

[Zonie]

After you enlarge your touch hole to 1/16" your gun will fire faster but a flintlock is slower in firing than a caplock. That's just part of the game.

When you get your rifle working as it should you will still hear the flint hit the frizzen but the boom will drowned out the rest of the noise.

Rather than hearing, "CLICK, WHISH, BOOM!" you will hear, "CLICKBOOM".

As for 4F priming vs 3Fg priming, yes, the 4F is faster but only by a few thousandths of a second.

When thing happen within a few thousandths of a second of one another the human mind cannot recognize it.

 

[rafterob]

Rather than hearing, "CLICK, WHISH, BOOM!" you will hear, "CLICKBOOM".

Also, concentrate on the target and sights and forget about the ignition end of things and you will soon find yourself not even noticing the clickboom.

 

[MJMarkey]

I've always owned and shot flintlocks. There is a slight delay but so slight as to be imperceptable, at least to me. There is a huge difference in lock quality, some just don't work well. When I had my first rifle from Dixie Gun Works, it worked well when new but very poorly as it aged. Many slow ignitions and no ignitions. I now build my own and use quality locks and haven't worn one out as yet.

I don't think you mentioned what lock you're using. Is your lock producing ample sparks? Everytime? If so I would be sure that your Touch hole is drilled to 1/16". I use Chambers White Lightening liners that come pre drilled slightly undersized, Jim Chambers told me on his own rifles he drills them out to 1/16" so I follow the advice from the master.

If you're using White Lightening liners from sources other than Chambers, you may have a counterfit liner. Not bad, but not made to the original specs. I had some wher the vent hole was so small I was only able to fire once before the hole totally fowled up. After drilling it out to 1/16" never had any more problems.

The only other problem that can slow down ignition would be the flint. I use French Amber flint when I can get it. If my ignition slows it is usually because the flint is getting dull. You will notice a slow down in time right before the flint stops producing reliable sparks. So just knapp it to sharpen it and you're good for many more shots.

 

[ebiggs1]

Watch that video that Mr. Phariss provided. That is as good as it gets. Do you see how he primed? Preferably against the touch hole, but do you really think it made a difference where the prime was?
Watch that video and ignore all the other “expert” most bestest ways to shoot a flintlock.