Colt Signature Series

[ravenousfishing]

What is the difference between the Colt Signature Series revolvers (3rd gen?) and the 2nd gen Colt revolvers? I believe the 2nd gen revolvers were a continuation of the original line, although a century or so later, correct.

 

[SAJones]

The "Third Generation/Signature Series" was actually assembled by Henry Arms, and as far as I'm concered the quality is not even close to the 2nd generation models. I've heard two stories on the 2nd generation: parts made by Uberti & assembled by Colt, and some say assembled by Henry Arms. Nevertheless, the finishing is much better in the 2nd gen. My 3rd gen Walker, 1851, & 1861 Special Musket have rounded edges where they should be square, dished screw holes & the musket was a piece of junk. Didn't even have the half cock notch cut plus a lot of other problems. Had to send it back to Colt & they replaced the lock. Barrels' good, though.

Consequently, the 2nd generations are quite a bit more expensive when you can find them. Some folks are collecting them: I just bought a 2nd gen 1851 made about 1975 that apparently had never been fired; still had the wood design cardboard box & styrofoam packaging, & paid $500 for it. My 2nd gen Dragoon fires very good groups w/ conicals, & looks very good besides.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The second generation Colts were built from rough forgings and castings bought from Uberti and completely finished in America. They were made to a very high standard and have real casehardened parts and high quality bluing.
The "Signature Series" are another story entirely. They were made in Brooklyn at Lou Imperato's factory and are vastly inferior to the second gen Colts. The parts were finished separately so that trigger guards and backstraps often stand proud from the frame. The actions will usually feel gritty and polishing marks show through the finish. Several that I've seen have timing issues, including my own. If the price reflected the quality, they might be good beaters, but I'd much rather have a Uberti than a "Sig Series" any day.

 

[B. Miller]

I have six signiture series and two second generations. The second generation were made by the Imperato brothers as earlier stated. The signiture series were made by Henery Repeating Arms under license from Colt which is owned by ? the Imperato brothers. When I had a problem I spoke with Tony and it was taken care of, fast.

Both were made from rough parts imported from Uberti as where the BP replica colts made by USFA. The signiture series Colts are as smooth as their golden boy lever action rifles. I shoot an 1851 navy signiture and people look at my revolver in their hand after they pull back the hammer. It is that smooth. The two revolvers are of equal quality. My signiture series revolvers are pieces of functional art as are the second gen. The 1851 signiture shoots great. Shooting a colt you have to get used to a changing site picture as the rear site is on the hammer of the revolver and changes when you pull the trigger.

I do have a pocket navy signiture that needs much to be desired as the silver plating is flaking off. I have heard this was a problem with some of both the second gen. and signiture series.
Hope this helps. I own both.
Bruce

 

[B. Miller]

Sorry I forgot to say in my previous post that according to the Signiture Series catalog they are also continuations of the original serial numbers. These were made under license from Colt.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I think you'll find that Lou was Anthony's father rather his brother. He died last fall. The "C" series and second gen guns were made under license by Iver Johnson, which Lou bought in 1973. The third gen guns were made in Brooklyn. The Henry Repeating Arms Company opened its doors in 1993, long after the last second gen Colt was made. Your happy experience with the "Sig Series" is good to hear about. Most reports aren't nearly so pleasant.

 

[rebel727]

From what I've read on other forums Colt won't repair or paper third gens.

 

[TFoley]

When I had a problem I spoke with Tony and it was taken care of, fast.

Bruce

Dear Mr Bruce - is that because you are an American, and not, like me, a complaining furriner?

About four years ago I joined this forum to ask about contacting the makers of my Colt Walker, #1816. On firing it for the first time with a 40gr charge of suitable Go-Ex the wedge - a serial-numbered part - bent like a banana, and had to be carefully removed by cutting it apart with a Dremel and diamond cutting disc.

I wrote to Colt Blackpowder Arms, asking them to SELL me a replacement serial-numbered wedge, and was studiously ignored for the next year or more, in spite of sending them many e-mails and no less than ten letters. And the phone was permanently off the hook whenever I called. I never received any form of acknowledgment from them and still have not, to this day.

It totally put me off buying any more of their products, and bleeve me, I have money to burn where guns are concerned.

Dixie Gun Works sent me a wedge in five days. I got a gunmaker friend to apply the requisite numbers.

All is well.

tac

 

[B. Miller]

RussT
Here is where I got my info: Colt Blackpowder Reproductions & Replicas A Collectors and Shooters Guide by Dennis Adler. "Colt Blackpowder Arms Company in Brooklyn, NY was orginized in 1993 by the original manufactures of the 2nd Generation Colt pistols, Louis and Anthony Imperato." I did not know it was a father son deal though.
The warranty on the last two signiture series revolvers I purchased is from Henry Repeating Arms.
For me collecting replica revolvers is a less expensive way of getting into collecting and it also gets you familiar with the originals, as that is what they are all compaired to. There really is not a lot of published information on reproductions so I kind of take what I can get.
Bruce

 

[mykeal]

tac -
Perhaps the reason you haven't received a response from Colt Blackpowder Arms is that they ceased operations in 2002. If your first attempted contact was four years ago (2004) you were a little late. Your determination to never buy another gun from them will be easy to fulfill.

To be honest I don't know which of the above posts to believe and which ones not to believe. I own one Signature Series gun (a 3rd Model Dragoon) and have had the pleasure of handling and shooting two 'C' Series 2nd Generation guns (an 1851 Navy and a 2nd Model Dragoon). My gun is very well made - there are no issues with respect to function, fit or finish and it shoots as well as my Uberti examples. I realize that making a generalization about the entire production run from my single example is illogical, but I'm satisfied with what I have. I did recently have occasion to handle two Signature Series 1862 Pocket models, both in presentation boxes and they were very disappointing in fit and finish. However, as used guns it was impossible to tell it that was the fault of their manufacture or the owner's perhaps faulty maintenance.

As to the history and provenance of the Signature Series, perhaps this from the Fifth Edition (2007) of the Blue Book of Modern Black Powder Arms will help:

On page 41 -
"COLT BLACKPOWDER ARMS CO.
Previous manufacturer and retailer of 3rd Generation Colt Black Powder pistols and muskets located in Brooklyn, NY 1994-2002
All 3rd Generation Colt blackpowder models are also referred to as Signature Series Models. A reprise of the original Colt Blackpowder line, along with historic models not offered in the 2nd Generation, and a new series of Commemoratives, each model (with the exception of the Heirloom Tiffany 1860 Army and 1842 Texas Paterson) bears the Sam Colt signature on the backstrap. These 3rd Generation models were manufactured under an authorized licensing agreement with Colt Firearms by Colt Blackpowder Arms Company - the same company (and many of the same craftsmen) responsible for the 2nd Generation revolvers. Although parts for the Signature Series were cast in Italy, they were fully assembled and hand finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color case hardening.

Colt Blackpowder Arms Company Signature Series revolvers are regarded as authentic Colt pistols. The 3rd Generation models have original Colt markings, including the barrel address and serial number stampings. There are no foreign proof marks on these authentic Colt models.

Please refer to Colt Blackpowder Reproductions & Replcias - A Collector's & Shooter's Guide for color pictures of the 3rd Generation Colt Blackpowder makes and models listed. Third Generation Colts can be found on pages 23 through 37 and pages 77, 84, 85, 86 and 94."

On page 45 -
"COLT'S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC.
Current firearms manufacturer with headquarters in West Hartford, CT.
Colt's Manufacturing Company is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT. Colt used subcontractors to supply rough castings for the manufacture of these black powder pistols. Throughout the production years 1971-1982 these rough castings were produced in Italy and the reproductions were completed in the United States. Initally, Val Forgett and Navy Arms provided these parts/components during 1971-73. Lou Imperato supplied these parts from 1974 to 1976. In both instances, these revolvers were assembled and finished in Colt's facilities in Connecticut. Finally, from 1978 to 1982, Colt subcontracted both parts procurement and final production to Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms in Middlesex, NJ. Colt Percussion revolvers produced by Iver Johnson had frames, center pins, nipples and screws manufactured in the United States. In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Colt's strict specifications and quality control. Additionally, Colt's performed final inspection for all models. All percussion models manufactured from 1971 through 1982, either by Colt or its subcontractor, are regarded as authentic Colt pistols and not Italian replicas.

The Colt Custom Shop also produced a number of limited number of special editions through the early 1990s from 2nd Generation production inventory.

Please refer to Colt Blackpowder Reproductions & Replcias - A Collector's & Shooter's Guide for additional color pictures of the 2nd Generation Colt Percussion Revolver makes and models listed below. Second Generation Colts can be found on pages 12 through 22 and pages 78, 82 and 83."

 

[ravenousfishing]

Thanks for the quotes. I think that clears up the earlier posts a little bit. For some reason, I thought when Colt came out with the 2nd gen that they were marketed as being built in the US with the original machinery and continuing the original serial numbers, but I guess not.
Seems like from the above posts, just like the Italian repos, some are good shooters, some aren't.

 

[TFoley]

tac - Perhaps the reason you haven't received a response from Colt Blackpowder Arms is that they ceased operations in 2002. If your first attempted contact was four years ago (2004) you were a little late. Your determination to never buy another gun from them will be easy to fulfill.

That's pretty darn sad. Y'see, I was not aware of all this shenanigins, and sent my initial request to Colt's in Hartford, the only address I knew.

It was THEY who said they forwarded it on to a company that is seems did not exist at the time.

Makes me glad that all my REAL Colts were made a long time ago, so's I don't have to deal with such a bunch of lunkheads.

Thanks for the interesting post, though it continues to raise as many questions as it answers from those still convinced that Colt actually made their 'Colt'.

Graders

tac

 

[mykeal]

Thanks for the quotes. I think that clears up the earlier posts a little bit. For some reason, I thought when Colt came out with the 2nd gen that they were marketed as being built in the US with the original machinery and continuing the original serial numbers, but I guess not.
Seems like from the above posts, just like the Italian repos, some are good shooters, some aren't.

I think the claim that the 2nd Generation guns were built in the US and continued the serial number series is correct; I did not include the serial number information available in the book but it seems to confirm that claim. Second Generation serial numbers for 'C' Series 1851 Navies were from 4201 to 25099, and for the 'C' Series 3rd Dragoon they were from 20901 to 25099.

As for 'original machinery', that may or may not be true; I don't think there's any way to verify or refute that. Certainly original tooling was used to some degree, although repairs and upgrades were probably necessary.

I do not have a copy of Dennis Adler's book (referenced in my earlier post) yet; I think it has a more definitive description of the manufacturing pedigree and serial number distribution, but I don't know for sure.

 

[DOUBLEDEUCE 1]

With this discussion about the quality of the Colt revolvers, I had to go and check mine. I have three Colts and a couple of Italian jobs. I am happy to say that all of my Colt revolvers are in pristine condition. The fit and finish is beautiful on all of them. I bought my first one over thirty years ago, 1851 Navy. The second one was soon after, a Dragoon. The last one I just picked up through a friend, it is the signature series, 1861 Navy, with the matching flask and presentation box, never fired or even turned. I am sort of looking for the 1860 Army to round out the group and maybe a Pocket Police model. In my experience, the Colts have been absolutely beautiful... and great shooters too. :thumbsup:

 

[SAJones]

Well, shouldn't reply to posts w/o checking the old bookcase. I do have "Colt Blackpowder Reproductions & Replicas - A Collector's & Shooter's Guide" by Adler, which would've allowed me to make a better presentation of their manufacuture. However, I've also heard that they "continued the original serial numbers" line. No so for all models. In "Colt's Dates of Manufacture 1837-1978" by RL Wilson, he has the 2nd generation Dragoon series starting at 20801, which is a continuation, but the 1851s start at 4201 in 1971. His last 1851 serial number is 215348 in 1873, when Colt quit making them. My 2nd generation 1851 would have been made in 1852 by the serial number instead of 1975. I believe the other models started production after his cutoff date, so unfortunately are not included.

In Adler's sidebar on the first 2nd Gen Walkers, he stated that Angelo Buffoli of Armi San Marco started the procuction of them. I have a Marco Walker, and it is much better made than my 3rd Generation Walker, and only cost me $100 used.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I think that paragraph is a little misleading. If ASM had actually built the 2nd generation Walkers, they would have had to carry Italian proof marks like any other Italian made gun. Neither of my 2nd gen Walkers has any such markings on it, and I have never seen one that did. Most likely ASM supplied rough forgings which were machined and finished in America.

 

[bprevolver]

I will add to this continuous debate on Colt 2nd & 3rd Generation revolvers. But if you want the absolute authority you have no further to go than Dennis Russell's book, "Percussion Colt Revolver-The Second Generation". This book also covers the 3rd Generation revolvers as well. Check the RPRCA web site for the address to order from Dennis: http://rprca.tripod.com

The 2nd Gen "C" Series were actually assembled at the Colt Factory in almost the same way the originals. The parts were first purchased from Val Forgett at Navy Arms, made by Uberti and then directly from Uberti. Later Lou Imperato moved the operation to his newly acquired Iver Johnson factory. The "F" Series were produced there as was the 3rd Gen. later on.

The 2nd Gen revolvers were inspected by Colt inspectors to keep the quality control demanded by Colt. These guns can be "lettered" by Colt and are a continuation of the original numbers.

The 3rd Gen revolvers were manufactured by the licensed Colt Blackpowder Arms, also at the old Iver Johnson factory. Their serial numbers are also a continuation of the original guns starting where the 2nd Gen numbers ended. Parts in these revolvers were obtained from Uberti and Armi San Marco.

Interesting side story is that Lou left Armi San Marco holding the bag on a bunch of parts ordered by Colt Blackpowder Arms when Lou went out of business. Mostly were barrels that had been marked with the Colt Address. Rather than eat them ASM put them on their own revolvers that they were exporting to the U.S. You have a well finished Armi San Marco revolver with the official Colt Address on the Barrel and "San Marco" on the frame where the "Colt Patent" usually is found. These are extremely collectable and are already bringing some high dollars from replica revolver collectors. Customs put a stop to these imports when Colt Complained, but some got through customs.

At the end of the contract with Iver Johnson to assemble the 2nd Gen Colts, Lou Imperato was already working on a contract with Colt to produce the 3rd Gen Series. Evidently Lou considered the possibility of having Uberti make the completely finished gun. A series of sixteen revolvers of different models were made by Uberti with all the Colt markings. Each one carries a permission letter from Colt. These make anything from Colt look second rate. Finish is Royal Charcoal Blue over highly polished metal. They do, however, have the Uberti name under the loading lever. Colt could not accept this and then rejected Mr. Imperato's proposal. The approval letters are dated Jan.15, 1990 based on the contract between Iver Johnson and Colt dated July, 1985.

Most Colt collector’s accept the 2nd Gen revolvers consider these collectable. A number of collectors, however, do not accept the 3rd Gen revolvers as Colts and thus the difference in value. The demand for 2nd Gen revolvers is by both Colt collectors and replica percussion revolver collectors, whereas, the demand for 3rd Gen revolvers is by the replica percussion revolver collectors and ignored by Colt collectors. I might add the demand for these Colts by shooters also play a big part. Since these 2nd & 3rd Gen revolvers are modern production, many of them are still available in “New In Box” condition. These are the ones wanted by collectors. Fired revolvers will be discounted by 50%.

 

[44-henry]

My father had a signature series Walker that had a horrible finish on it, rounded corners that should have been square etc. On the other hand I have seen some others that were very nicely finished. I personally think the quality control on some of these leaves something to be desired. I would definitely want to inspect one first hand before buying it.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The Iver Johnson factory that built the "F" series guns was in New Jersey. The Colt Black Powder factory that built the 3rd Gen guns was in Brooklyn. So it would have been difficult for the "F" series guns and the 3rd gen guns to have been built in the same factories.

 

[PRM]

On the 2nd Generations it was not general knowledge early on that the raw parts came from Italy with Colt finishing them. I have 2 - 1851s, and 2 - 1862 models (Pocket Police and Pocket Navy). All of these are high quality and great shooters. Silver plating does wear with use as on the backstraps and trigger guards. After, close to 3 decades of use I had 2 of mine replated with nickel silver and dressed out with pre-ban ivory. Back in 2001 when Colt Black Powder Arms was up and running (Signature Series), they reblued these 2 - did and excellent job for $50 each. Wish they were still in business.

The 3rd Generations were licensed to use the Colt name but were also basically Italian. I have a 3rd Generation Walker that I really like, but given the choice would probably have bought a 2nd Generation Gun. I also have one of the 3rd Generation Standard Paterson that for now is a safe queen.

The 2nd and 3rd Generations I have come in contact with are for the most part good guns. My personal preference is the 2nd. Some of them may need some initial tweaking - you can get that with any of them. I chose the Colts over the Ubertis and Piettas mainly because I wanted to be as close to the original as I could afford (guess I paid for a name). The 1st Generations are over the top in price and if you could find and afford one in mint condition - who would want to fire it???