Colt vs Uberti

[mravery]

Hello All,

Newbie here so I apologise if this is too basic of a question....

I have a Uberti 1862 pocket navy (used) and just picked up a Colt 2nd Gen (serial 521xx)Pocket Police (used).

The finish on the Colt is much nicer than the Uberti but what I'm concerned about is the action on the Colt. The hammer pull is very stiff and feels like two pieces of sandpaper rubbing against each other. Also, about one in 10 hammer pulls the cylinder mis-aligns to the hammer.

Is this something that can be corrected or is it serious? The pistol was purchased with an as/is option.

Is this a normal issue with these guns and that it will just work it out after a while or?? The gun is very clean and does not appear to be abused in any way.

I thought that the quality of an 2nd Gen Colt would be superior to the Uberti.

Any thoughts or suggestions greatly appreciated!

Cheers
Mark

 

[Coot]

My 2nd gen Colt 1851 looks and functions flawlessly. Someone familiar with Colts needs to get inside yours to determine what is going on & estimate repair cost.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The Second Generation Colts are much nicer inside and out. Does your revolver have a Sam Colt "signature" on the backstrap? That's an awfully high number for a Second Generation Pocket Police. They made less than 4000 of them.

 

[Dphar]

Hello All,

Newbie here so I apologise if this is too basic of a question....

I have a Uberti 1862 pocket navy (used) and just picked up a Colt 2nd Gen (serial 521xx)Pocket Police (used).

The finish on the Colt is much nicer than the Uberti but what I'm concerned about is the action on the Colt. The hammer pull is very stiff and feels like two pieces of sandpaper rubbing against each other. Also, about one in 10 hammer pulls the cylinder mis-aligns to the hammer.

Is this something that can be corrected or is it serious? The pistol was purchased with an as/is option.

Is this a normal issue with these guns and that it will just work it out after a while or?? The gun is very clean and does not appear to be abused in any way.

I thought that the quality of an 2nd Gen Colt would be superior to the Uberti.

Any thoughts or suggestions greatly appreciated!

Cheers
Mark

IIRC the rough Colt parts came from the same place as the Uberti parts.
The Colt parts were finished in the US by H&R.
I have seen a Colt 1860 that had an unpolished frame, had about an 80 grit finish all nicely casehardened.
The Uberti's vary as well (but I have never seen one that bad in the finish) depending on who you get them from. You are more likely to get a good one from Cimarron than from Uberti USA in my experience. I got a 1862 direct from Uberti years back that was about grade 2-3, not very good.
I was pretty disappointed.

Dan

 

[mazo kid]

It sounds to me like the Colt revolver needs a good cleaning of internal parts. It should be very smooth and crisp in operation. Also, that the timing is erratic suggests some crud somewhere or bolt spring weak or hanging up.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The rough forgings came from Uberti for the Second Generation guns and were machined by Iver Johnson down in New Jersey or so the story goes. They were finished and inspected by Colt and are considered to be genuine Colts by Colt and everyone else. I've never run across a poorly made or finished Second Generation gun but the Third Generation guns are a different story entirely. Colt really had nothing to do with them and they are at best a mixed bag. Forgetting the dumb signature thing, they are famous for their mis-timed and gritty actions and polishing marks that run every which way--a result of polishing the parts separately instead of as a whole. My Sig Series happened to have a slick action, but the exterior looked like it had been finished by blind-folded crackheads using sledge hammers and chunks of granite(with apologies to crackheads everywhere). The rough forgings may have come from Armi San Marco or maybe Jupiter. All the machining and finishing and boxing and shipping was done in Brooklyn, N.Y. and that's about as close to Colt as they ever got. :v

 

[LeMat1856]

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if you don't mind terribly, can you divulge where you "picked these up" - was it through an auction, retail, online, friend, other..

if auction i would say "caveat emptor" but retail should not have any inferior products.

if friend, maybe it's time to reevaluate.

have you test fired them ?

to see what's wrong with the colt you would have to take it apart, so do you have any tools and would you know the difference between a good or bad component ?

there is a two part *.pdf called "how to tune a pietta" on the web at :
PART 1

PART 2

download and look these over and see if you understand the text and have the basic screwdrivers to take the item apart.. the action parts are 'usually' not terribly expensive, so it might be possible to fix a minor issue yourself.

getting something 'as is' generally is not a good sign - it almost implies that there is something wrong with it..

read those articles and let me know what you think - do you understand it, could you do it, etc.. then we'll move on from there..

keep in mind that a compotent gunsmith can also take a look at these and make it all go away ... for a price.

i should be back in a day or two.. hey, it happens to us all at least once, if that's any consolation.

~d~

 

[Robert an saa fan]

Good posts. My various ramblings on the questions posed:

O.P. - mravery: Yes, the action should work smoothly, should index the cylinder into proper alignment and lockup the bolt into the cylinder notch.

Even though the Colt looks clean it may have been abused/poorly gunsmithed, have a broken spring, cap fragments/gunk/rust inside and may lack lubrication. Also, there is a tiny chance it was not properly fitted when made.

If you disassemble it be very sure to use correct fitting screwdrivers.

re Russ T's comments: - Colt 2nd Generation Pocket Police numbers do go higher than O.P.'s stated 521xx. I currently have an 1862 Colt Pocket Police in the original box which is No. 55xxx. Have seen numbers into the 56xxx range in the small frame 2nd Generation Colts. A good question re does it have the Sam Colt Signature on the upper backstrap as it is possible the numbers were not followed correctly by the Brooklyn, New York firm making the Signature Series.

 

[mravery]

Hi Guys,

WOW... thanks is all I can say. Your comments have been great!

Now.. to answer some of the questions...

No, there is no 'signature' on the backstrap. Just the original COLT stampings (top of the barrel, cylinder, side of the frame and everything has matching serial numbers).

This gun was purchased from an on-line auction (yes, I know, ya get what ya pay for....

I bought it as a shooter and it was used (but didn't seem abused). I took it apart last night and thoroughly cleaned and oiled it. After I did that some of the grittiness and looseness is better and it does not mis-align as much as it did before (still gritty pull though).

I'll take a look at the PDF file. I'm pretty handy at working on stuff so as long as I don't have to worry about a spring flying into the air with no place for it to go, I might be ok :haha:

The finish on the Uberti is nice (didn't mean to slam it in the first post) I was jsut using that as a comparison to the COLT. I really like the Colt and would jsut like to get the action thing worked out.

No, I have not had a chance to fire either one. I hope to do this in a few weeks.

Cheers and thanks!
Mark

 

[mykeal]

Just a note to say that at least one of the 3rd Generation (Signature Series) guns was well finished; my 3rd Model Dragoon is as fine as I've ever seen on any replica or original Colt single action. And I've seen a lot in 30 years. None of the flaws you mention are present.

Maybe I'm the only person who has such a gun.

 

[mravery]

I'm getting an error when I attempt to open the links to the PDF files. Can someone else try and see if they have the same issue?

Also, in defense of the seller, I never asked if I could return the COLT. I felt that the price was reasonable for a shooter since all of the other prices I have seen are almost double...BUT.. I could also be very wrong :youcrazy:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129013665

Cheers
Mark

 

[mykeal]

Clicking on Part 1 returns a 404 Page not found error. Clicking on Part 2 returns the correct document.

 

[mravery]

.
.
.
if you don't mind terribly, can you divulge where you "picked these up" - was it through an auction, retail, online, friend, other..

if auction i would say "caveat emptor" but retail should not have any inferior products.

if friend, maybe it's time to reevaluate.

have you test fired them ?

to see what's wrong with the colt you would have to take it apart, so do you have any tools and would you know the difference between a good or bad component ?

there is a two part *.pdf called "how to tune a pietta" on the web at :
PART 1

PART 2

download and look these over and see if you understand the text and have the basic screwdrivers to take the item apart.. the action parts are 'usually' not terribly expensive, so it might be possible to fix a minor issue yourself.

getting something 'as is' generally is not a good sign - it almost implies that there is something wrong with it..

read those articles and let me know what you think - do you understand it, could you do it, etc.. then we'll move on from there..

keep in mind that a compotent gunsmith can also take a look at these and make it all go away ... for a price.

i should be back in a day or two.. hey, it happens to us all at least once, if that's any consolation.

~d~

Hi guys

Ok... here is the update.... I used the references above and pulled it apart, all the parts had a ton of 'gritty' gunk on them (oil, powder residue and misc crap). Even found the remains of a cap inside the grip when I took it apart.

I also noticed that the hammer just touches the side of the frame just before it makes contact with the nipple.

So, all back together and for the most part all went together smoothly (until I dropped the cylinder on the tile floor, but that's another story) :cursing:

Everything seems smoother than before I cleaned it. I think most of the difference now is that the mainspring seems stronger on the COLT than the Uberti so it's harder to pull.

After 50+ pulls, only one mis-align of the cylinder. :wink:

The only other thing I noticed and not sure if it will require attention is that the grooves (sorry for the lack of proper terminology) that LOCK the cylinder into place are starting to get a little 'mashed' on one edge. The articles did mention it as it was caused from the lock being larger diameter than the groove. I checked it and it appears to be correct and not too large. Is this normal for these SA pistols and does it happen to all of them or does it require attention?

Many many thanks!
Mark

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Just a note to say that at least one of the 3rd Generation (Signature Series) guns was well finished; my 3rd Model Dragoon is as fine as I've ever seen on any replica or original Colt single action. And I've seen a lot in 30 years. None of the flaws you mention are present.

Maybe I'm the only person who has such a gun.

It does seem that the Dragoons, including the Walkers, generally were assembled to a higher standard than the '60 Armies were, for example. It also may depend on when the gun was made. When they were going out of business, production quality was spotty to say the least, and they began jacking their prices up--apparently feeling that they were now making heirlooms the like of which would never be seen again. I had a rifle musket on order and after they took the order at the catalogued price, they informed me several weeks later that the price was going to be an extra $450.00. I passed on it and I still think they were completely unethical to do such a thing. After seeing some of the guns made in this period I think was fortunate.

 

[LeMat1856]

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. may 20 / 10:15


ditto - i'm getting the same 404 error.

do this:

click on "part 1"

get the 404 error page

place your cursor in the address space and remove everything up to ..../articles

then press "enter"

should look like this:
http:/ /www . theopenrange . net/ articles /

you should come to another page with a list of subjects to select..

then just click on or download parts 1 and 2.

why this happens ? beats me.

~d~

 

[SAJones]

I have five 2nd & 3rd generation Colts, and would say the finishing on the 2nd generation is superior to the 3rd generation "Signature" series. Mostly in final polishing: too many rounded corners. They all work well and function perfectly. As for the scarring in the cylinder locking notches, that is usually caused by poor timing. Maybe now that the insides are cleaned the cylinder will index better and the scarring will cease. If not, timing a revolver is a job for an expert. I would not worry about it, however. Unless the cylinder doesn't line up directly with the bore, it won't hurt anything but looks.

 

[mravery]

I have five 2nd & 3rd generation Colts, and would say the finishing on the 2nd generation is superior to the 3rd generation "Signature" series. Mostly in final polishing: too many rounded corners. They all work well and function perfectly. As for the scarring in the cylinder locking notches, that is usually caused by poor timing. Maybe now that the insides are cleaned the cylinder will index better and the scarring will cease. If not, timing a revolver is a job for an expert. I would not worry about it, however. Unless the cylinder doesn't line up directly with the bore, it won't hurt anything but looks.

Thanks for the info!!

As long as it wont hurt the performance of the pistol I'm good to go! :grin:

Thanks again!!

 

[madcratebuilder]

I have about a half dozen each of 2nd and 3rd gen Colts. Other that the bluing the fit and finish is the same, very good. If anything the bluing on the 3rd gens is better, if you like the deep, dark blue.
The 2nd gen Colt Pocket Police, #F1500 according to what I have read, have serial numbers in odd 1000's (49000, 51000, 53000 etc.)
Can you confirm the 52,XXX serial number?