Columbia River Dag?

[flintriflesmith]

I am looking for information on original (antique) knives similar to the so called Columbia River dag shown on Crazy Crow Trader's web site.
link to image

It differs from the regular beaver tail dag in the handle shape and the full width tang. Does anyone know where I might see pictures of originals and learn more about how they were marked?

 

[CoyoteJoe]

In Carl P. Russell's book "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountainman" figure 44 is a sketch of four such dags. He states they were very common with Indians all across the northern portion of the continent from New York to Puget Sound. They are historically correct if that was your concern, otherwise I know of no photos except my photos of my own knives.

 

[Andy Mueller]

Most of what you're talking about were really popular with the blackfeet. They were not actually intended for knives to begin with but were acutally spear heads that were made into knives I can only find two examples in my collections so far, but I'm sure I'll wrestle some more down soon. The last one is unlabeled because I just haven't gotten around to it, but its from the English Field Museum in London if you care to track it down.

Scouter

 

[Andy Mueller]

I have yet to see one with the handle like the one in Crazy Crow-not to say they don't exist, but I have not seen one yet.
Scouter

 

[Nifeman]

Boy Scouter, if I am not mistaken the two in the bottom pic are Tinglets (sp) used by Northwest Indians. Are they yours, or are they in a museum??? Bud

 

[Andy Mueller]

I have yet to get a specific tribal affiliation and doubt I will, but yes, they appear to be tiligit. They're located in the British Royal museum in England. I wish they were though!

 

Gary,

According to CA Hanson's Fur Trade Cutlery book, manufacturers stopped making these blades with handles at all around 1850. Hence, the design of the haft was up to the owner, or they could stick them on a lance or a war club. Catalogs in general tend to be bad about representing their products as a time or locale specific type or variant though they may or may not represent one specific specimen taken from that locale or time. Few if any are good at citing their wears origins. Hence even if it does come from the Columbia River area, I don't think it adequately represents the variation in hafts from the region.

Personally,I've never seen these or citations of these blades with anything but a whittle tang, so I think the full tang is a modern addition from their manufacturer in India. It likely results from the fact that they are making them by stock removal instead of forging. If you have an original with Sheffield markings its something totally different than anything I've seen. There were some of these made by America manufacturers later on, but they were generally of lesser quality. I don't know if we've really got a handle on the breadth of variation in these American dags. A final possibility if its unmarked is that it could be a frontier blacksmith made version. Its not unheard of that frontier smiths mimicked these sorts of trade goods, hence the gun barrel pipehawks and the like.

Any markings on it would help. Put a picture up if you're able.

Sean

 

What Sean said.... the early and less heavy bayonet style(according to Hanson first sold in the mid-1700's) and the later (mid 1820's)Hudson Bay Dag were all made commercially with stick tangs. The only full tangs I've seen (and FWIW I've been studying and making fur trade knives for about 40 years)that have full tangs were locally/blacksmith made - there are a few pictured out there with full tangs but only a few.
Originally all bayonets/dags were sold as blades only - they could then be used as either spear point or as knives. They were mostty popular amongst the Canadians and the upper Missouri tribes, but show up as far south as the Osages. Blades shapes and sizes varied considerably, the smallest I've seen was about 7" and the longest about 15". There are even a couple of originals out there with bronze blades!

For pictures a couple of sources:
Early Knives & Beaded Sheaths of the American Frontier - Baldwin
Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook - Museum of the Fur Trade

Mike Nesbitt, writer for Muzzleloader magazine, did state elswhere however that an original much like the CC Columbia River Dag is in a Washington State Museum, you may want to contact him regarding that one.

some pics:
One full tang..Blackfoot sheath

Bronze Dag

From Baldwin's book which shows both commercial blades as well as local made...

A classic Hudson Bay style horn handled presentation dag - commercail handle

The bayonet style blade is shown top right

 

Chuck,

I know this is probably obvious to you, but that full-tang version with the awesome Blackfoot beaded sheath has a blade profile that suggested it might be blacksmith made. All the commercial dags I've seen have that strong strong centerline that that one lacks.

Very nice pictures.

Sean

 

Yep - most likely a local made.
The earlier bayonet styles don't always have that heavy centerline, but the later HBC dags do.
Here's an Osage made warclub with a big bayonet blade with no centerline - the OAL of the club is 27" so you can scale the blade from that - about 9" long blade only by 3.5" wide....

 

[T.C.Albert]

I recently asked the folks at Crazy Crow about this dag,and was told that their "knife was inspired by the one mentioned in the book “Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men” by Carl P. Russell. The design on the handle is different than the one shown in the book on page 176 which shows a Columbia River dag, as shown in the Maryhill Museum, Washington along with several other daggers."
T.Albert

 

[Andy Mueller]

I think the CCTP knife is really cool and I have wanted it for more than a few years. I have been asking around and have found out pretty much what the other guys have been saying, so I have yet to purchase one for myself. I tell all of the Boy Scouts doing Indian outfits that they should stick with what was normal and not the exceptions because if you're wearing a bunch of exceptions it doesn't portray the time accurately. I hate practicing what I preach. I really, really, really, like the style of that dagger's handle and would love to have it as part of my outfit, so if any of you have enough examples to justify getting one anyways I would love to see em!

Scouter

 

[jasontn]

you talking about the cctp one with the crossgurad? i been thinking of buying one of those myself

 

I finally dug out my copy of Russell to look this up. The knife is on page 176, figure 44 C. It was, at the time, in the Maryhill Museum in Washington State, and is shown with a similarly hafted dag from the same collection. However, neither appears to be full tanged in the drawing. If you look at JA Hansen's Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook, you'll note a dag in there that used horn spacers between the scales. When Crazy Crow made their version of this one evidently from the drawing they interpreted it as a full tang. It appears to be a standard HBC trade blade. The pin pattern on it is consistent with the whittle tang and slots in the blade seen above on Gray Wolf's pictures.

Anyway, here's what Russell had to say about it:
"Another 'Stabber'-type knife from the Maryhill collection is shown in figure 44c. It is similar to the preceding dag, but a brass flange, or collar, encloses the tang and separates the bone hilt from the blade. A single brass rivet passes through the collar and into the iron. The wrist cord [which passes through the top corner of the butt of the scales] is made of twisted strands of sinew. Essentially the dag was a fighting knife; the northern Indian traditionally kept 'at hand'. Journals written by early-day mariners on both coasts frequently tell of Indians in canoes or swimming in the immediate vicinity of the visiting ship displaying their naked dags attached to their wrist..." Page 176-177

Hope that helps.

Sean

 

[T.C.Albert]

Thanks Sean...that makes perfect sence, especially if the basic blade was sold or traded to be used either as a spear or hafted as a Dag, (or war club spike)...a full tang would really limit those options..

For awhile the Museum of the Fur Trade was selling a basic HBC type blade as a commemorative, had the sitting fox and circle etched on it....I should have gotten one then as I cant seem to find one anywhere now.
T.C.Albert

 

[Ohioan]

A fellow in my club bought the remaining Museum of the Fur Trade dags a few years back. He had a big box of them. I'll see if he still has them if you are interested.

 

[Andy Mueller]

I sure am! Keep us posted.
Scouter

 

[T.C.Albert]

Sounds great...thanks very much..
T.C.Albert

 

[crockett]

FRS: if you are willing to pay $29.00 for a cheap knife from India that is probably not PC, why not pay a few dollars more for something better? A while back the museum of the Fur Trade was selling dags with 7" and 9" blades for around $50.00. These were made (I think) by Russell- Green River Works, so the steel would be a lot better. The on-line store at the MFT is closed right now but maybe you can e-mail or call them and find out if they still have any blades.
And.... I have sort of looked for a bottleneck on dags, etc. If the area is post 1820 and pre-1840 and the Oregon Territory- a lot of the goods would be HBC so you can check the suppliers of the HBC and figure what ever dags were in that area were likely their wares. That doesn''t mean other goods could not have traded into the area but most of the dags would likely be HBC (that is stick tang).