Common spot for residue or do I have a problem?

[Morse]

Hi all, I'm Morse and new to the forums. New to BP as well.

A little info about the rifle I recently picked up might help my question. It's a .50cal Traditions Hawken. Not sure how old/new it is, the shop I bought it from told me 8-10 years old, but the conversation (after basic research from other topics of discussion) leads me to believe he didn't know much about BP firearms. If you just google the gun name and find sellers, I didn't pay anywhere near their asking price, so maybe it's a good thing he was kind of ignorant.

When I go shooting, I end up with a ring of powder residue on the rear of the barrel, circling that cone looking piece which connects to the nipple. Removing the barrel from the stock, there is some visible damage around this cone, as if someone maybe had a pair of pliers and scratched the barrel. No visible damage on this cone piece, just on the barrel surrounding it.

Is this residue placement from gasses escaping the nipple and spreading on the barrel, or do I have a loose cone piece which is letting gasses escape where they aren't supposed to be? Does anyone else experience this?

PS: Is there a name for that circular cone that connects the barrel to the nipple?

 

[Katahdin]

It is called Drum,,, got on line and see if the owners Manual is available,most /some are,That is the first place to start,read it and get a base line of information and the Safety Notices. Come early stay late and enjoy

 

[Tom Compton]

Welcome Morse. Pictures will help with analysis. May be normal stuff, a simple problem needing a new nipple or worse a leak around the drum.

 

[Cowboy]

I think the cone shaped part protruding from the barrel that you are talking about is called a Powder Drum. The nipple should screw into the Powder Drum. You stated that you noticed marks around this area on the barrel. That is not good! Sounds like somebody could have been trying to tighten or loosen the Powder Drum. The only reason I could think of is that they may have been trying to align the position of the nipple so the hammer cup would fit squarely over it. From what you explained, the residue ring around the Powder Drum showing up where its connected to the barrel sounds like you may have escaping gasses coming out of that area. I do not believe that muzzleloader is safe to shoot in that condition. I only have limited experience and have never messed with the Powder Drums on any of my muzzleloaders and would not attempt to. Somebody will view this post and chime in with alot more experience than I have. If you do not receive an answer soon I would send a message to Zonie. He is one of the Moderators here on the forum and knows about anything you could think of when it comes to muzzleloaders. He will be able to answer your question. I would not shoot that muzzleloader until you hear back from one of our senior members. From what you described, it does not sound good to me! ( P.S. Zonie, I hope you didn't mind me using your name but I know you are always willing to help us out) Respectfully, cowboys1062

 

[Morse]

Welcome Morse. Pictures will help with analysis. May be normal stuff, a simple problem needing a new nipple or worse a leak around the drum.

I have pictures on my computer, but I can't figure out how to get them here without signing up for a website where I upload pictures and then use the URL to post them here. Is there an easier way?

Also I have tried to search this topic, especially the name of this item. Now that I know it's called a Drum, hopefully thatll make it easier to search!

The original nipple did have some wear on the top, so I did end up replacing it recently. Before and after the replacement, the residue stayed the same.

 

[Katahdin]

I checked the Owners Manual is on line and is free,,

 

[Morse]

I checked the Owners Manual is on line and is free,,

I've checked the literature provided from the Tradition's website. The Drum is also called a Bolster. The rifle part's list provides a P/N for the Bolster Screw, and yet completely omits any evidence of the existence of the Bolster/Drum.

One website I found said you shouldn't mess with any Spanish made Drums, and to send it in to the manufacturer. Another stated you can unscrew, rethread, and replace. I have yet to find any evidence of this drum being sold on the market...and I don't want to try unscrewing this drum without having a replacement. :shocked2:

 

[Morse]

Ok.Found my old photobucket site and uploaded some pics. I apologize for the blurred images. My antique iphone 4 can only do so much. The nipple you see is a brand new stainless steel replacement shot that day.








As you can see, I'm not exactly sure if it's from the Drum or if its just back pressure through the nipple and spread onto the barrel from under the hammer.

 

[bigted]

Ok.Found my old photobucket site and uploaded some pics. I apologize for the blurred images. My antique iphone 4 can only do so much. The nipple you see is a brand new stainless steel replacement shot that day.








As you can see, I'm not exactly sure if it's from the Drum or if its just back pressure through the nipple and spread onto the barrel from under the hammer.

that looks like the residue from the cap area to me ... a couple more questions here would make it a bit more clear as to understanding your now pictorial problem ...

what load are you shooting and what projectile?

does this amount of fouling appear after the first shot or after several shots?

what size is the thru hole in your new nipple?

what caps do you use?

these answers can help clear up some areas of doubt as to the origins of this fouling. it may indeed be coming from the drum threads but I would think that if the threads are leaking that the fouling should appear all around the drum entrance to the barrel instead of just the top up next to where the nipple blowby can deposit the same style fouling marks.

 

[Morse]

that looks like the residue from the cap area to me ... a couple more questions here would make it a bit more clear as to understanding your now pictorial problem ...

what load are you shooting and what projectile?

does this amount of fouling appear after the first shot or after several shots?

what size is the thru hole in your new nipple?

what caps do you use?

these answers can help clear up some areas of doubt as to the origins of this fouling. it may indeed be coming from the drum threads but I would think that if the threads are leaking that the fouling should appear all around the drum entrance to the barrel instead of just the top up next to where the nipple blowby can deposit the same style fouling marks.

It's a new to me rifle so BP charges are anywhere from 65-85 gr so far. The majority of shots are 80gr FF. As far as if this accumulation is from one shot or many, I truly cant answer that. I believe it happens gradually over many shots.

I've been shooting pre-lubed patch and round ball. Anywheres from after every shot to after every 5 shots I either run a dry patch down the barrel or a lubed patch followed by a dry patch.

As far as nipple hole is concerned, I have no idea. It is a stock Traditions #11 replacement P/N A1250. The replacement is tight, but you can see there is maybe a 1/32 gap between the drum and thicker part on the nipple. The original nipple didn't have this gap, but the same amount of fouling did occur.

I use CCI #11 caps.

Powder residue is only on the top of the barrel because the buttstock/forearm cover midway and under the drum. Residue also shows up there but definitely not as heavy.

Am I just paranoid, and this powder residue is just from gasses escaping through the nipple hole and being directed out by the hammer? This is my first BP firearm, and stewing it over makes me believe that it could just be from the back blast.

 

[Grenadier1758]

You should do some searching on this forum for information about the CVA / Traditions breech designs. The drum (bolster) is integrally designed into the breech plug. If the drum is removed it can be next to impossible to reinstall the drum. Removal of the drum violates any manufacturer's warranty on the rifle. That is why you won't find any replacement part number for a drum (bolster) for a CVA or Traditions rifle.

From the picture, the residue appears to be from the cap. I would have to see the rifle to determine if what is there is just some surface fouling from the nipple or something more serious. It does appear that the original owner tried to remove the drum / bolster.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Perfectly normal.....All of mine do the same.....
If it bothers you try a flash cup.

But it's really not an issue...

If you blow down the barrel after shooting you will likely notice smoke escaping from under the nipple........"Warning" blowing down the barrel is a controversial procedure but it does diagnose certain problems.

 

[Morse]

That all makes perfect sense. The alignment when the hammer falls onto the nipple isn't quite perfect, which could explain the scratches of someone trying to adjust the drum.

I could care less about a little powder residue - as long as it's supposed to be there!

I've put roughly 50-60 shots through this rifle with no signs of this gun being a danger.. you know, besides throwing a .50cal lead ball under extreme pressure from explosive powder.

Thank you all for the help on this. I look forward to shooting again just so I can clean this beast with confidence.

 

[longcruise]

You should do some searching on this forum for information about the CVA / Traditions breech designs. The drum (bolster) is integrally designed into the breech plug. If the drum is removed it can be next to impossible to reinstall the drum. Removal of the drum violates any manufacturer's warranty on the rifle. That is why you won't find any replacement part number for a drum (bolster) for a CVA or Traditions rifle.

I think it would be prudent to proceed with caution. If there is a problem with the drum, it's failure could result in injury. Most likely to a bystander! I would take it to a known and competent muzzle loader Gunsmith. They are few and far between!

The drum can be easily and readily removed for inspection and replaced
If necessary. Removing the drum and the breech plug is however very tricky. Attempting to remove the breech plug without removing the drum is an absolute guaranteed way to do serious damage to the gun.

 

[Adui]

Morse, I have that exact rifle in left handed model. What you are seeing is perfectly normal in my experience. Keep shooting and have fun with it. It's a good rifle!

 

[Morse]

Morse, I have that exact rifle in left handed model. What you are seeing is perfectly normal in my experience. Keep shooting and have fun with it. It's a good rifle!

I would LOVE to own a left handed Hawken. Being a left hander in the firearm world is a definite disadvantage. Bolts are always on the wrong side, safety's are always in terrible, unquick to reach places..not to mention 7 years of pulling back a charging handle in an awkward position.

Seeing that this splatter is common, I see no reason why I'd have to remove the drum from this rifle.

 

[rafterob]

Yes, looks like normal residue build up which is partly from caps detonating and partly back pressure from black powder. A Flash cup will keep it away from your rifle.

 

[Adui]

:grin: I got her at a little shop in Springfield Oregon that specializes in front suffers. Bought it in the 90s but I think the shop is still there

 

[bpd303]

One way to tell if the threads are good on the drum is to plug the nipple and pour a little kerosene or spray some WD-40 in the bore. If the threads are bad you will see fluid leaking around the drum to barrel junction.

 

[Zonie]

I will sort of agree that if the drum threads don't show any sign of leaking when something like kerosene or oil is put into the barrel, the threads are not the problem.

That said, the threads are standard Unified machine screw threads and they are not gas or fluid tight.

There is a clearance between the male and female threads at the tips and the roots of the threads that will allow fluids of gasses to leak thru them.

If the threads don't leak fluids or gasses it is either because someone has used a sealant on them or there is a bunch of fouling at the tips and roots plugging the clearances up.