Compacting powder or not

[hankfannin]

I couldn't find this topic anywhere so my question is what is the proper, or let's say - the method that gives the best accuracy, for compacting the powder when loading. Should you just lightly push the patch and ball against the powder charge or should the you really compact the powder?

Anyone done any testing and have any results other than just a theory or opinion?

Thanks,

Greyhawk

 

[azmntman]

Have not tested but I just pour in, smack the side by the nipple and load ball snug.

Of course Fess Parker appears to pack powder when loading his flinter? :idunno:

 

[BrownBear]

Depends on the gun, but with any you want to do it the same way all the time.

As a general rule my cappers do best with lots of compaction while my flinters don't want any. But among them are little shades of gray about how much or how little they want.

Only way to know for sure about your guns is to experiment with it. Marking the ramrod is always good once you find the magic combo.

 

[ohio ramrod]

There was a time many of the shooters on the line at paper shoots used a bathroom scale to make sure they had the same compression on each shot. Then there was a period where many used a "slide hammer" ( Kadoty I believe was the name ) to get even compression. But I haven't seen either for several years. :idunno: :idunno:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

There are a couple of factors at play here. Black powder burns most consistently with a certain amount of settling & compression, and this has been extensively explored in the context of BPCR and percussion precision shooting. Ignition can be a different matter. Percussion ignition systems ignite the powder with a jet of high-pressure incandescent gasses that will blow through the powder more-or-less regardless of the compression. In contrast, Flintlocks (matchlocks, wheellocks, etc.) ignite best when the powder that is exposed to the flash, and the nearby powder grains that are ignited before pressure has built up, are NOT compressed, so that they retain maximum permeability to the initially-low-pressure incandescent gasses flowing through them. The late Forum member Paul Vallandingham reported fairly comprehensive tests with plain-breeched flint and cap rifles, and found that he consistently got the lowest standard deviation of the muzzle velocity in caplocks with a certain amount of compression, but in flintlocks with the ball just touching the powder and no compression. This ignition sensitivity was a major factor in the development of the various patent and non-patent chambered breeches in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. If the chamber has suitable size and shape, compression of the charge will stop at the chamber as the grains bridge on the mouth of the chamber under compression, leaving the charge in the chamber and flash channel uncompressed. If the chamber is too small, as in some modern reproductions, this bridging can occur when the powder is poured, or might occur more with coarser powder but less with finer. These are the guns, both flintlock and percussion, where one has to slap the stock to settle the powder before ramming the ball down, to prevent misfires. The classic Nock patent breech used a separate transverse second chamber to ensure that the powder initially ignited was uncompressed but shot a high pressure jet up through the center of the primary chamber and the compressed main charge for maximum efficiency.

Regards,
Joel

 

[Prcoleman43]

I always compact when loading my .50 cal flintlock.
I actually bounce the ramrod off the charge till it sounds and rebounds "solid."
Never had a misfire or hang fire with this rifle. I do pick the flash hole after loading...
I honestly never gave a thought as to what this might do to accuracy, as the rifle continues to put up impressive groups.
(Load is 72grains FFFg under prb, 1.5grain FFFFg prime)

 

[Larry Pletcher]

Steve Chapman and I did such a test when this topic was discussed some time back.

Link

We measured compression by using a collar on the ramrod. This removed the variable from shot to shot and also from one set of trials from another. The article gives the methodology and the results.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[Prcoleman43]

Excellent link, Pletch!
Thanks!

 

[Semisane]

Pletch, the article does not list the velocity results and I can't read them on the target pictures. Do you have them? I suspect they will tell more than the group size measurements, given that balls and powder charges were not weighed.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

I may have a chart of velocities, I'm not sure. You will notice we intended to repeat this with the modifications mentioned at the end.

Our reason for weighing charges in a test repeat is obvious, but if you watched Steve handle a measure, you might not worry. He is very meticulous.


We both think flint and percussion like uniform compression. Both did their best with 3/16" compression.
Regards,
Pletch

 

[bpd303]

If you hold down the ctrl key and roll the mouse wheel it will enlarge the pictures of the targets so they can be read. It looks like the velocities were pretty consistent in the mid 1600s.

 

[plastikosmd]

I am more of a bench gun, slug guy. One of my guns is a 4 barrel, 2 action and a pistol set by bob Morris (rl Morris). There is a nice article in muzzleblast here, (bob Morris the builder here) http://muzzleblasts.com/archives/vol4no2/articles/mbo42-4.shtml

It talks of fine tuning a slug gun and they talk compression. Generally, over compressed lead to more variability in velocity

 

[Rifleman1776]

Slightly compressed is my method. Do what works for you. As you see, there are two theories for every shooter. :shocked2: At large matches the bench rest guys each have their own ritual for loading and some are very-very fussy about compression. Only the 'X's' know. Spend time at the bench and test.

 

[hankfannin]

Pletch,

Many thanks. That's the kind of info I was looking for. I was at the range this morning and tried compacting my loads just to see if I could tell any difference. I do believe it tightened up my groups. Mind you I was playing with different thickness patches and a few different loads but all in all, I think using my unscientific method of just smartly tapping the range rod twice each time on the patch/ball made a difference. I was shooting a TC 45 with 33 inch Green Mountain barrel and at 50 yards off the bench I can get cloverleafs now using my standard load. I think I'll make a collar for my rod and do a little more testing.

Many thanks to all that replied. It was all very helpful and much appreciated.

Greyhawk

 

[Semisane]

I think I'll make a collar for my rod and do a little more testing.

Grayhawk, your local hardware store will have shaft collars in several different diameters.

 

[greggholmes]

Great tip. :hatsoff:

 

[54ball]

As a general rule my cappers do best with lots of compaction while my flinters don't want any. But among them are little shades of gray about how much or how little they want.

I find that to be the case and it's backed up with my near 30 years of BP shooting and at least 200 years worth of literature.

Flintlocks as a general rule prefer a lighter touch.

from the 1812 Handbook for riflemen

Care should be taken not to bruise the grains.

Percussions since they are near a sealed system and the cap produces a small pressure wave, can be compacted a lot more without affecting ignition.

 

[Baby Huey]

Congrats to Joel from Calgary for his erudite offering. Review of all the above strongly suggests that each gun is unique and compaction of powder, ball weight, ball diameter, ball composition (lead vs wheel weights) patch thickness, and selection of powder grain, all exert a significant influence upon accuracy.
My Lyman 50 cal GPR percussion works best at 100 yards with a 490 ball, 70 grains FF, and .22 in pillow ticking patch infused with Crisco. The Fox River 50 with a 1/48 twist likes a thinner patch and 70 grains FFF.

 

[RedFeather]

I seem to recall a range rod which had some sort of device at the top, either to measure pounds of compression or adjustable to let-off like a torque wrench. Either way it offered repeatability. Anyone seem something like this?

 

[necchi]

A man can learn to compress his charge very much the same each time,, it's just a matter of paying attention and pushing the rod the same amount each time.

The "Kadooty rod" had a spring on it,, I've never seen one but it was just a novelty/fad that quickly passed.